<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 06 March 2007 - Volume 04<br><br>=========================================================================<br><br>From: <span id="_user_snepvangers@optushome.com.au" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">
Peter Snepvangers <<a href="mailto:snepvangers@optushome.com.au">snepvangers@optushome.com.au</a>></span><br>Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2007.03.04 (08) [E]<br><br><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
From: </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Peter
Snepvangers <<a href="mailto:snepvangers@optushome.com.au" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
snepvangers@optushome.com.au</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL - L Language
Translation</span>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">would anyone know the
meaning of the following words;</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2">bevestigingsoorkonde (I think it means fixing
something??)</font></span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2">het patronaatsrecht (the
patron??)</font></span></span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2">de abdij
van Tongerlo (the ?? from Tongeres)</font></span></span></span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2">was gelegen in (was ??
in)<br><br>From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>Subject: What
does it mean?<br><br>Hi, Pete!<br><br>Since at the moment you can't know if
this lot will respond, I'll give you the quick and dirty for now.
<br><br></font></span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">bevestigingsoorkonde</span><br><br>German speakers
find a false friend here. Dutch <span style="font-style: italic;">bevestiging</span> is not the same as German <span style="font-style: italic;">Befestigung</span> 'fortification'. <span style="font-style: italic;">
Bevestiging</span> means something related, albeit
seemingly rather different: 'affirmation', 'avouchment', 'assent', 'consent',
and <span style="font-style: italic;">oorkonde</span> means 'document'.
So what we seem to have here is some sort of contract.<br></font></span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<div><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">patronaatsrecht</span><span style="font-style: italic;"><br><br><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">
p</span>atronaat</span></span> 'sponsorship'
<br><span style="font-style: italic;">recht</span> 'right'<span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"></span><br></span></font></span></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">de
abdij van Tongerlo</span><br><br><span style="font-style: italic;">abdij</span>
'monastery', 'convent', 'church ruled by such' (thus a community ruled by an
abbot or abbess) <br><br></font></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2">was gelegen in
</font></span>
</span></span></span><br></div><br>'was situated in'<br>past participial of
<span style="font-style: italic;">liggen</span> 'to lie', 'to be
situated'<br><br>And harking back to your earlier posting ... (tsk-tsk) <br><pre style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">I have decided to get off the lurking chair and ask for some assistance. As<br>many would know my family name is Snepvangers. The Snep part of this name
<br>refers to the bird called snipe or snip in Dutch. The vangers I presume<br><br>refers to Catchers from the Dutch vangen. I have been researching my family<br>tree and have so far traced back to the 1480's into North Brabant near
<br>Zundert, Breda, Rijsbergen, Rucphen etc. I have been provided with<br><br>information from a genealogist of name variations of the Snepvangers name in<br>the 1300's. I presume these would be Brabants or medieval Dutch. I have also
<br>been forwarded some information written in "Thiois" which I think is old<br><br>Dietsch. Could anyone with knowledge of oude Brabants provide me with<br>spellings of how the Snepvangers name may have been written, or how it may
<br>have been written by sound. Some of the variations are as simple as van de<br><br>Snepvangers, van Snepvangers, van Snepveghem, van Sneveghem etc. Any<br>assistance would be greatly appreciated. By the way, a quick read in this
<br>old language is quite easily understood and pleasant to me.</pre><font size="2">I can't give you all the answers you need, but I can give you the
following: <br><br>Personally, I don't expect ther4e to be too much
dialectical variation of this particular name (which I assume to have rather
limited geographical spread).<br><br>If your name did occur in the
corresponding areas, I would expect the following (all hypothetical):
<br><br>Northern Low Saxon: *Snepp(en)fanger (Snep(pen)vanger) or
*Snipp(en)fanger (Snip(pen)vanger)<br>Modern German:
*Schnepfenfänger<br><br>Old L. Frank.: *Snip(pan)fengere(-s)<br>Old Saxon:
*Snip(pa(n))fahari, perhaps *Fugolori from <span style="font-style: italic;">fugolon</span> 'to catch birds'<br>Old English:
*Snītefang, *Snītefangenend, *Pūrfang, *Pūrfangenend,
<br> more likely, however, *Fuglia (> Fowler) from
<span style="font-style: italic;">fuglian</span> 'to catch
birds'<br> (Middle English seems to have borrowed
<span style="font-style: italic;">snīpe</span> from Scandinavian *<span style="font-style: italic;">sn</span><span style="font-style: italic;">
ī</span><span style="font-style: italic;">pa</span>)<br>Old Norse:
*Snīpafangari, more likely *Fyglari from <span style="font-style: italic;">fygla</span> 'to catch birds'<br>Old German:
*Snepfanfāhāri, or Fogalari (attested as 'bird catcher', 'fowler') <br>Gothic:
*Snippanuta<br><br>I can't help you with Frisian.<br>Anyway, I expect that
this is barely marginal to your research.<br>Best of luck with it!<br>And
leave them poor birdies alone!<br><br>Reinhard/Ron</font> <br></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">Hey Reinhard,</font></div>
<div><font size="2">Thank You for all your assistance once again.</font></div>
<div><font size="2">The old German looks interesting, I thought it might have
been something like schnepf....</font></div>
<div><font size="2">It seems the snip variation is quite common although it is
quite unusual to see the snite form in old English, I wonder where that came
from.</font><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2">Thanks,</font></span></span></span>
</span> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2">Peter Snepvangers</font></span></span>
</span></span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2"><a href="mailto:snepvangers@optushome.com.au" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
snepvangers@optushome.com.au</a></font></span></span></span></span></div>
<span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2">Sydney
Australia<br><br>----------<br><br></font></span></span></span></span>From: <span id="_user_snepvangers@optushome.com.au" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Peter Snepvangers <<a href="mailto:snepvangers@optushome.com.au">
snepvangers@optushome.com.au</a>></span><br>Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2007.03.05 (08) [E]<br>
<br><div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">MWI</span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<<a href="mailto:wintzermichel@wanadoo.fr" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">wintzermichel@wanadoo.fr</a>></span><span class="q"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?"
2007.03.04 (08) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<div><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2">bevestigingsoorkonde (I think it
means fixing something??)</font></span></div></span>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2">literally "confirming document"</font></span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2">het patronaatsrecht (the
patron??)</font></span></span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2">Literally "the law of
patronage</font></span></span></div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<div><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2">de abdij van Tongerlo (the ?? from
Tongeres)</font></span></span></span></div></span>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2">abdij van =
abbey of</font></span></span></span></div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<div><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2">was gelegen
in (was ?? in)</font></span></span></span></span></div></span>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2">was
situated</font></span></span></span></span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2">Greetings Mike
Wintzer</font></span></span></span></span></div><span class="q"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Roger
Hondshoven <<a href="mailto:rhondshoven@yahoo.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">rhondshoven@yahoo.com
</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?"
2007.03.04 (08) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></span></div><span class="q">
<div><font size="2">'Oorkonde' is a rather archaic word meaning
"deed,document".</font></div>
<div><font size="2">'Bevestiging' = "confirmation". Both words together then mean
something like a "deed confirming (....)"</font></div>
<div><font size="2">'Patronaatsrecht' = "the right to recommend, nominate members
of the clergy for the office of priesthood".</font></div>
<div><font size="2">'Abdij van Tongerlo' = " the Abbey of Tongerlo", a village in
the province of Antwerp, somewhat halfway between Diest and Herentals. Not to be
confounded with Tongeren, a town in East-Limburg.</font></div>
<div><font size="2">Regards,</font></div>
<div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Roger Hondshoven</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></div></span>
<div><font size="2">Dag Roger and Mike,</font></div>
<div><font size="2">thanks for your help here. Roger, I have been to Tongeren in
East Limburg about 20 years ago and thought this was where the abbey must have
been. You can't beat good local knowledge. I found Diest on a map now so I have
a general idea of where it is (slightly north west of Tongeren). I have been
reading through the provincial archives of West Brabant, fantastic stuff. I am
very lucky to have access to this as it gives me another perspective on the
history and culture of my ancestors. Amazing to see the names of all those
families who are related sprinkled through the pages.</font></div>
<div><font size="2">Dank U Wel Roger and Mike</font></div>
<div><font size="2">Regards</font></div>
<div><font size="2">Peter Snepvangers</font></div>
<div><font size="2"><a href="mailto:snepvangers@optushome.com.au" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">snepvangers@optushome.com.au</a></font></div>
<div><font size="2">Sydney Australia<br><br></font></div><br>