<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 17 March 2007 - Volume 02</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">=========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Luc Hellinckx <<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Language maintenance"</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Beste Ron,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">You wrote:</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<blockquote style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" type="CITE">
<font color="#000000">Thank you for the interesting question, Jacqueline. It reminds me to the situation on the German side of the border. </font><br>
<br>
<font color="#000000">People
at the upper end of the socio-economic "totem pole" sometimes use Low
Saxon ("Platt"), especially with "ordinary" people (e.g. patients and
clients), perhaps because they find it cool and it creates the
impression that they have a feel for and the right touch with the
"people of the land." Anyway, they have nothing to lose; it can only
improve their reputation. </font><br>
<br>
<font color="#000000">But
people of lower socio-economic classes want to believe that they are
"upwardly mobile," and especially those of the middle class furthermore
feel obliged to prove that they do not belong to the lowest classes,
namely to the classes that speak "dialect." </font><br>
<br>
<font color="#000000">My
impression and theory are based on the assumption that most people
still believe that the use of "dialect" is associated with inferior
education (and the word "regional language" is merely a euphemism
symptomatic of the refusal to recognize a language as a language among
people of the supposedly same ethnic group) and that only those people
choose to occasionally use "dialect" whose learnedness is not in doubt,
and the symbolic proof of this is their superior proficiency in the
national standard language. </font><br>
<br>
<font color="#000000">***</font><br>
<br>
<font color="#000000">Belatedly
in my defense of responses to this, please let me add that I did not
claim that this actually applied to the situation in the Netherlands.
So it was not really to be answered with "right" or "wrong" but with
"it applies" or "it doesn't apply" to the situation in the Netherlands.</font><br>
</blockquote>
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Do you believe the psychological relationship (regarding language)
between lower, middle and upper socio-economic classes in any other
part of the world can be very different from the German situation?
Especially your remark about "upwardly mobile" people, sounds pretty
universal to me (in as far as middle class exists in the concerned
economic system). </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
A (slight) gender based schism shouldn't be ruled out however in my
opinion. I once read in a professional journal that linguistic
innovation (in western societies) is more readily adopted and
transferred by women than by men, so it wouldn't surprise me that
middle class men (try to) retain their original speech longer than
women do.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Kind regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Luc Hellinckx</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
sassisch@yahoo.com
</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: Language maintenance</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Hi, Luc, and thanks! </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">It's always great to hear from you, buddy, especially because you and I tend to agree ... ;-) Might this be because both of us have been to the ends of the earth on foot, so to speak, and have discovered first-hand that most differences are but skin-deep?
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Seriously, though ... Yes, I do agree with what you said. Or I should say that this is my basic tenet. I just didn't want to come across as dogmatic, unbending or whatever, and this is why I left the door open for people to come forward and convince me otherwise, also in the case of the Eastern Netherlands (and the situation does seem somewhat different according to what I hear).
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">I found our Jacqueline's question very interesting, in part because it deals with social class issues of language use. In my experience these aspects tend to be neglected or underrated these days, perhaps because we ike to believe that class differences are no longer as important or pronounced as they used to be, or we find the topic somehow unpleasant and sensitive in general (much like avoiding talking about the rising cost of living so people won't think we're hard up and thus low-class).
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">My observations about the upper class's occasional use of "dialect" stand. As I said, it can hardly be detrimental to those that indulge in it. Lower class people will think, "The guy's down to earth despite his education and money. He's true to his humble beginnings, almost like one of us." Only some might think it's a case of patronizing if it's not pulled off convincingly. The upper-crust guy's or gal's peers will think, "He's a really smart cookie with the right touch for the riffraff, what with coming across as all ethnic, rustic and proletarian despite his education and money." This is provided he doesn't behave like a "boorish" type in "polite" company, provided there's no doubt about his social standing, and in large part symptomatic of that is his proficiency of the
</span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Kultursprache</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> when it counts. This type doesn't have to be wealthy as long as he or she is considered a member of the elite.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">In my youth in my neighborhood the foremost public users of Low Saxon where people like educators, academics, clerics, writers, media personalities and performers. I believe it is they that we owe most thanks, because in hindsight I believe that most of them were activists. Most other speakers went underground and didn't pass on the language to their offspring. Why? They were not members of the elite; thus they and their offspring thought of themselves as upwardly mobile and believed that the use of a low prestige language would be detrimental to this supposed mobility.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">I have to admit, though, that I am still somewhat mystified by the findings you reported regarding the gender issue. Yes, it seems to be true that males tend to be more conservative universally. This may be because most societies are male-dominated, and maintaining the
</span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">status quo</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> is therefore important to many males. Most sorts of changes thus tend to be perceived as threatening by many men, including by men that are not in leading roles but like to believe they have the potential of moving up, or they fixate on their leading roles as big fish in small domestic ponds. I have observed women in "executive" careers (both business and academia) taking on male-associated language and behavior in their endeavor to break into the male club and to be accepted there. If most linguistic changes emanate from females I suppose that those are females that do not aspire to that sort of role. However, in many cases "assuming male-associated language and manners" may be nothing more than not following the cutesie-tootsie girlish and "non-aggressive" ways that are the expected standard in some sections of society.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">I sure would love to learn more about this.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
From: </span><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <<a href="mailto:Dutchmatters@comcast.net" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
Dutchmatters@comcast.net</a>
></span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></span><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.03.17 (01) [D/E/German]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">Beste Ron, Jonny and Karl Heinz. So what
if people in different times speak a different Platt, my nieces and nephews
speak a different Dutch than I do. And I don't think it is surprising that there
is some difference between the language of better educated and lesser educated
people. But at least they are talking to each other. It is probably just my
sadness that the Middle Ages are over! Jacqueline<br><br></span></font><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">