<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 19 March 2007 - Volume 01</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">=========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_altkehdinger@freenet.de" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Jonny Meibohm <<a href="mailto:altkehdinger@freenet.de">
altkehdinger@freenet.de</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.03.18 (02) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span>Beste
Reineke,</span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span>Du
schreyvst:</span></div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="q">
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font color="#008080">I consider what's been happening to the once newly introduced
polite second person pronoun part and parcel of this. In the 19th century
it was <span style="font-style: italic;">Jy</span> (<span style="font-style: italic;"> Ji</span>), thus identical with the second
</font><span><font color="#008080">person plural. Then, under German
influence, <span style="font-style: italic;">Sey</span> (<span style="font-style: italic;">Se</span>) was introduced, based on the third person
plural ... except ... it's objective form ain't "right":
<br><br>German:<br><span style="font-weight: bold;">they</span>: nominative <span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">sie</span>, dative <span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">ihnen</span>, accusative
</font><font color="#008080"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">sie</span><br></span><span style="font-weight: bold;">you </span>(polite): </font></span><span><font color="#008080">nominative
<span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">S</span>ie</span>, dative <span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">Ihnen</span>, accusative
</font><font color="#008080"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">S</span><span style="font-weight: bold;"> ie</span><br><br></span>It's consistent, as you can
see. But now ...<br><br>Common Low Saxon:<br></font></span><font color="#008080"><span><span style="font-weight: bold;">they</span>: nominative
<span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">sey</span>, dative <span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 153);">jem ~ j</span></span></span><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 153);">
üm</span><span>, accusative <span style="font-style: italic;"></span></span><span style="font-weight: bold;"> <span style="font-style: italic; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 153);">jem ~
j</span></span><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 153);">
üm</span><br><span><span style="font-weight: bold;">you </span>(polite):
</span><span>nominative <span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">S</span>ey</span>, dative <span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 153);">
Sey</span>,
accusative <span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 153);"><span style="font-style: italic;">Sey</span></span></span></font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div></span>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span>Yeah- another good
example what can happen if a language is getting watered.</span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span>But- this 'Sey' is
already fading, perhaps as a result of English, Dutch and Scandinavian influence
on Standard German. People less and less use the 'polite' *Sie* in private talk,
which also could be caused by a decrease of social differences. This slightly
seems to vary between Northern and Southern Germany as well as between
urban and rural regions.</span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span>In LS you even won't find
it any longer among young people beneath the age
of let's say 40. If you don't want to use a simple 'Du' ('you') you
will first take the old plural 'Jii' in LS and also 'Ihr' in Standard German.
It's really very common in Northern Germany.</span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span>BTW: in our region up
until the sixties of the twentieth century there still was LS 'Hey' (E: 'he', G:
'Er') the normal kind of addressing a man of lower social rank: "Hett
<strong>Hey</strong> de Ossen all fou'ert?" E: "Did <strong>he</strong>
already feed the cattle?" G: "Hat <strong>er</strong> das Vieh schon
gefüttert?". The way back, from lower to higher rank, went: "Joo,
<strong>Buer</strong>, hebb ick all! Kannst' Du doch woll sülbst seyhn, wat se
satt sünd!" E: "Of course, boss, I have! Don't you see that they are
satisfied?", G: "Ja, Bauer/Chef, habe ich schon! Siehst <strong>Du</strong>
nicht, dass sie satt sind?".</span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span>But this (first) form is
strongly aspected disreputable and cannot be used today; too many of the
older people still connect it with bad and poor times for the working
class. </span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span>Allerbest</span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span>Johnny
Meibohm<br><br>----------<br><br>From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>Subject: Pronomina<br><br>Jonny:<br><br></span><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">> But this (first) form is
strongly aspected disreputable and cannot be used today; </span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">> too many of the
older people still connect it with bad and poor times for the working
class.</span><br><br>And I would say, "Good riddance!" Or would you think of this as a part of "watering down" as well?<br><br></span>After all, this seems like a great example of language changing with the times and with social changes that come with them.
<br><br>Addressing a working man with "he" instead of "you" and having him address you with "they" instead of "you" seems rather out of place these days, and for good reason. Wouldn't you say?
<br><br>All these things used to apply in German too, and I don't hear anyone bemoaning the loss.<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Kumpelmenten,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">