<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 21 March 2007 - Volume 01<br><br>=========================================================================<br><br>From: <span id="_user_altkehdinger@freenet.de" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Jonny Meibohm <
<a href="mailto:altkehdinger@freenet.de">altkehdinger@freenet.de</a>></span><br>Subject: LL-L "Pronomina" 2007.03.20 (01) [E/LS]<br><br><div><span><font face="Courier">Beste
Marcus,</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">(<font color="#ff0000">English summary</font> below)</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">Du
schreyvst:</font></span></div><span class="q">
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Courier"><font color="#008080"><font face="Times New Roman">Un
Jonny, wenn du vun de Aboriginals schriffst, de noch archaic<br>originality and
the special natural syntax harrn, dat kummt dorvun, dat<br>disse Lüüd keen
Verständnis harrn för Regelwut un sprachliche <br>Wohlgeformtheit. De hebbt ruug
un struppig reedt, so as de Gedanken gaht<br>un sik keen Kopp maakt för Regelns
oder dat wat grammatikaalsch<br>inkorrekt ween kann. De moderne Minsch hett so'n
rationale Mentalität, <br>de in korrekt un inkorrekt indeelt, de en Ünnerscheed
maakt twischen<br>hübsch un missgestaltet, de de Welt sorteert un kategoriseert.
Dat weer<br>för den Homo Buur op't platte Land eenfach kene Saak, de 'n Sinn
möök, <br>dor över natodinken. De Lüüd hüdigendaags versöcht so to snacken,
dat't<br>allens dalschrieven kanns. De Aboriginal weer nich so kopplastig,
em<br>weer't egal, wat de Wöör för'n Reeg harrn, wenn man de Sinn so eben in
<br>Reeg weer, dat dat passeer, wat he verlangen weer. Oder
so...</font><br></font></font></div>
<div><font color="#008080" face="Courier"><span></span></font> </div></span>
<div><font face="Courier"><span>Un' dat is bannig wiisen
Kroom, dücht mii! Door hebb 'ck all fooken öber nodocht, wat disse 'eynfachen'
Lüü' öber 'eynfache' Sooken 'eynfach' snakkt. Un' opp disse Oort hebb ick miin
'Platt' leyhrt, mit eyn Vokabular, mit dat Du al'ns seggen kannst, wat för dat
Leben mang Weyten un' Woter, Ossen un Obsthannel wichtig is'. Un jüst sou
waard dat hier jo vandoog noch bruukt- al de 'gestelzte' un
öberklouke Geel-Snakkerey mookt wii leyber opp
Hough-Düütsch.</span></font></div>
<div><font face="Courier"><span>Disse Oulen weyrn obers
amend ne döösig, harr'n man net eyn lüttere Welt mit 'n minner viigeliinschet
Regelwaarks. Dey bruuken nix opp tou schriiben, dey harr'n al'ns in jemmer Köpp,
und dat wuur' van eyn Generatschioon an de anner wiider
geeven.</span></font></div>
<div><font face="Courier"><span> </span></font></div>
<div><font face="Courier"><span>Reineke un anner Lüü'
meynt fooken, wat Neddersassisch door tou schood föör weyr, un door is ouk 'wiss
wat Wohrheyt an. Jüst Reinhard kann allerbesten Kroom opp Platt schriiven, mit
eyn groud' un riik' Vokabular. Hey helpt opp disse Oort, wat oule Woyr ne
vergeeten waard, un dat schall ouk geyrn sou
bliiben!</span></font></div>
<div><font face="Courier"><span>Man- ick koom door jümmer
weller mit inne Bredullie, dat ouk as Deyl van *miin* Sprook tou akzepteyr'n;
dat is opp jichenseyn Oort jümmer noch 'fremd' föör mii. Miin Prooten un miin
Schriiben, dat sünd jümmers noch verscheyden' Welten; dat eyrste koomt van
'n Hatten, dat tweyde uut dennen oul'n döösigen Kopp... Naja- bii lütten
warr 'ck door joo schiints ouk wat sachtmödiger mit, man ick kann jümmer noch
reell fuchtig waar'n, wenn eynkelde Lüü anfangt, de Lautverschiebung in 't
Houghdüütsche t'rüch tou dreyh'n un denn tou seggen, dat weyr nu Neddersassisch.
Dat schall 'ck woll amaleev ne lous waar'n!</span></font></div>
<br><div><font color="#008080" face="Courier"><span><font color="#000000"></font>
<div><font color="#008080" face="Courier"><span><span><font color="#000000">(Mit Diin Verlööv...)
</font></span><strong><u><font color="#ff0000">English summary
Marcus:</font></u></strong></span></font></div>
<div><font color="#ff0000" face="Courier"><span></span></font> </div>
<div><font color="#ff0000" face="Courier"><span>Jonny, when
you write about the aboriginal LS-speakers, who still have
an archaical originality and special syntax then this is a result of the
fact that these people hadn't much sense for any 'furor grammaticalis' and
linguistical finesse. Their language was rough and rifty, just like the thoughts
came into their tongue- no matter for grammatical correctness. Modern people
have a more rational mentality, weighing everything for being correct or
uncorrect. They always distinguish between nice or uggly, and they sort and
categorize the whole world. This wasn't important for the 'homo agriculus'; he
didn't make many thoughts about this. The aboriginals weren't so 'top-heavy', so
much ruled by their heads: they didn't mind for the sequence of the words as
long as they made a recognizable sense. Or so...</span></font></div>
</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#ff0000" face="Courier"><span></span></font> </div>
<div><font color="#ff0000" face="Courier"><span><u>(my
answer:)</u></span></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font color="#ff0000" face="Courier"><span>And I guess
your thoughts to be wise! I myself often made thoughts about these 'plain'
people using a 'plain' language for 'plain' matters. And this was the way
how I learned LS, with a vocabulary enabling to express everything which is
necessary for a live between wheat and water, cattle and fruit trading. And
exactly this way it is still used today; if we come to any overblown,
intellectual themes we prefer to use Standard German.</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#ff0000" face="Courier"><span>But- these
oldies weren't stupid at all; they just lived in a smaller universe with less
difficile rules. They weren't forced to write down anything, they had everything
in their minds and that could be handed down to the next
generation.</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#ff0000" face="Courier"><span></span></font> </div>
<div><font color="#ff0000" face="Courier"><span>Ron and
others often say that it's a waste to use LS just this way, and I think they're
quite right at this point. In special Reinhard is very capable in describing
matters and relations in LS with a good and rich vocabulary. This way he helps
to keep old, nearly forgotten words, and so he should go on!</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#008080" face="Courier"><span><font color="#ff0000">But I for myself again and again come in trouble to accept this as
part of *my* language; in a certain way it's still strange for me. My talking
and writing still are different worlds. The first one comes out of my heart and
the second one from the 'old, stupid' head... Ok- I think I'm on the best way to
become gentler and gentler here, but I still get upset when special people just
turn back the wheel of the 'Lautverschiebung' in Standard German and then sell
it as 'original' LS. I'm sure I won't get rid of this for all my
life!</font> </span></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div> <font face="Courier"><span>Allerbest</span></font></div>
<div><font face="Courier"><span></span></font> </div>
<div><font face="Courier"><span>Jonny
Meibohm<font style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" size="2"><br><br><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: Language maintenance</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></font><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Moin, guys, and thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">As far as I am concerned, there is little "right" and "wrong" here; it's a matter of changes, contexts and choices. In the long run, I believe we and the language will be the richer.
<br><br>Personally I am not really in favor of either extreme: guarding "purity" as one extreme, and starting a orgy of </span></span></font><font style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" face="Courier"><span>free-for-all
</span></font><font style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" face="Courier"><span>innovation as the other extreme. Like Jonny, I'm definitely am not in favor of routinely transforming German words according to what one thinks the sound shifts are, because we are dealing with more than just sound shifts. (And, for the record, some of my participation in suggesting neologisms were tongue-in-cheek.) Nevertheless, I see no basic problem with neologisms. All languages have them, and all languages adapt to changes in various ways; so why not this one? Exempting it would be tantamount to preserving it as a museum exhibit. In that case why should neither touch nor use it.
<br><br>I find the Low Saxon language to be full of tools that can add great power to expressions, especially in written compositions, with a plethora of uniquely evocative words and colorful idiomatic constructs. It is only that most people are not familiar with many of those because their acquaintance with the language is very shallow and from a German vantage point. I love studding my wordcraft with those gems and think it would be a shame if they fell by the wayside. Wider use of the language and greater freedom of literary experimentation as well genre and style expansion would go a long way in bringing out this littled-tapped resource. However, this necessitates in large part more daring on the part of publishers.
<br><br>I am tired of the argument that the language should stay in the village. There have always been many townsfolk and city dwellers that use it, though it is true that since urban supression of the language started in earnest it has been mostly in rural corners that it has been used routinely.
<br><br>As for pronouns, obviously Marcus has a point in saying that familiar <span style="font-style: italic;">du</span> and <span style="font-style: italic;">ji</span> are the default second person pronouns among speakers of the language. This is definitely so in most villages, because, as Marcus noted, there is not much of a social scale, if any. However, I
<span style="font-style: italic;">have</span> heard villagers addressing "dignitaries" such as teachers, clerics and politicians with polite <span style="font-style: italic;">Se</span>. It is true, though, that even in cities the use of the language facilitates the path to being on first name basis and using familiar
</span></font><font style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" face="Courier"><span> <span style="font-style: italic;">du</span> and <span style="font-style: italic;">ji</span>, among the oldtimers at least if the speakers are roughly on the same social level. My point is that it is an oversimplification to say that familiar
</span></font><font style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" face="Courier"><span> <span style="font-style: italic;">du</span> and <span style="font-style: italic;">ji</span> are the only second person pronouns used in the language, though it seems fair to me to say that they predominate and are preferred.
<br><br>Polite forms used to be routinely used in Low Saxon in earlier times, namely when people of various social backgrounds still used the language with each other. In my opinion, the pronominal "shrinkage" is due to social "shrinkage." As the language retreated from the public arena and developed into a small-community language, and in the cities into a home, club or closet language, its use came to be more or less confined to circles of people that were close to each other and therefore addressed each other in familiar modes. This is further proven by jocular "abuse," namely by the more ready use of epithet-like "titles" for each other (in other words, calling each other names in jest the way Jonny and I often do). The use of Low Saxon allows speakers to get to this more intimate relationship more quickly than when using German, for instance. There is a sort of instant sense of familiarity, which does not mean that there is a complete absence of boundaries and respect. (It's more like men teasingly calling each other "old chap" or "you dirty old rascal" in somewhat old-fashioned English, or Australians calling someone they like "cheeky bugger" or such.)
<br> </span></font></div>
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Anyway, this was today's 75 cents worth from the windbag.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br><br>