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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 23 March 2007 - Volume 02<br><br>=========================================================================<br><br>From: <span id="_user_altkehdinger@freenet.de" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Jonny Meibohm <
<a href="mailto:altkehdinger@freenet.de">altkehdinger@freenet.de</a>></span><br>Subject: LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.03.22 (04) [E]<br><br><div><span><font face="Courier">Beste Sandy,
Ron,</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">Sandy wrote:</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font color="#008000" face="Courier">Dialects
and manners of speaking may come and go (and occasionally come <br>back again!)
but it seems that the language, in one form or
another,<br>continues.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">I think so, too,
that a language called 'Low Saxon' will exist in future. People as we and
many others are busy to collect as much knowledge as we and they are
able to preserve and paint a picture as complete as possible for later
generations.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">But- who
<strong>will</strong> really speak this language? The boring question: who
speaks Latin today? A circle of freaky scientists and crazy
hobby-linguists?</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">Who
<strong>is</strong> still, in our days, speaking LS? Ron writes (in a
previous mail):</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span><font color="#000080">I am
tired of the argument that the language should stay in the village. There
have always been many townsfolk and city dwellers that use it, though it is true
that since urban supression of the language started in earnest it has been
mostly in rural corners that it has been used routinely.</font>
</span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">And so it is, and I can't
imagine that this language will re-conquer the bureaus of lawyers, medicine
doctors or the big trading houses in Hamburg or Bremen. It's hard enough
for Standard German to defend its place there against the growing influence of
foreign languages (not only English, but Turkish, Russian, Kazachian... ;-)).
Our very famous M. Reich-Ranitzky these days stated: "Die deutsche
Sprache ist sexy und wird nicht untergehen!" (The German language is sexy
and won't perish!)</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">If you are lucky
enough to meet anyone speaking LS outside your own community you nearly
always will hear: "Yes, my grannies came from a small village, and they
spoke some 'Platt' together. So I've learned it a little myself." If these
grannies are older than 60 and really know how LS should be spoken, so that
youngster can call himself happy to have had teachers for the sound
and syntax.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">But then these young
people have to do the next step: learning! And who really will do, who will
force them at last to use books(!!) which in a good quality
don't even exist? Two years at secondary school, with perhaps two lessons a
week, without being examined? Without a real chance to find an
even-minded partner to speak with, to exercise and control <em>for the very rest
of their life</em>? As a fifth or sixth language? With parents in a world
of mobility, one from Munich, the other from Denmark or even Turkey? Doing their
further education in any Hungarian University, completed by one year in the U.S
or New Zealand? I fear nearly everyone living this way would be overtaxed
to <strong>speak</strong> this language- no matter if it's Nedersaksisch,
Neddersassisch or Scots.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">Why could the
Mennonites keep Plautdietsch alive throughout the centuries? I think: because of
their <strong>closed community</strong>, (still???) just far enough from the
influences of their surrounding world.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">Why did the Frisians in
The Nederlands succeed to re-animate their language? Because of the fact that
they feel as something special (you may call it minority if you want), as an
own community. So this time: language as help for
self-identification.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">So- *if* there is a
chance to survive then it will be in rural communities, but things are changing
here as well; urban way of life isn't any longer a matter of the cities
only.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">I'm sure- LS-languages
already have made the step to survive, but I don't think as spoken and really
used or even needed ones. The soul already is leaving the
body.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">So- all of us here and
everywhere dealing with Ingvaeonic oldies should be very, very careful when we
record and 'log' our knowledge. That's my
intention I am scolded for as a poor purist and notorious
nay-sayer- though it was my teacher Reinhard 'Ron' F. Hahn who often enough
pushed me to go this way ;-)!</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">I cannot become an
assistant of people who write a dictionary and decide what kind of words
they keep and preserve and which words that for their convincement are
needed but don't already exist have to be invented by themselves! Beg your
pardon, Ron: I do not basically object <strong>good</strong>
inventions to update, to complete a language in a special case,
but who being of sound mind would try to make a mathematical
dictionary in e.g. Gothic, hoping that pupils one bad day are tought their
school lessons this way?</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">Looking back to what I
wrote above (and in previous postings) I feel it could look very negative and
hopeless. But- nevertheless I still try to keep the language alive for our
children. <em>'Jetzt erst recht!'</em></font> <font face="Courier"> Now more
than ever!</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">Allerbest!</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">Jonny
Meibohm<br><br>----------<br><br></font></span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Subject: Language maintenance<br><br>Thanks, Jonny. I appreciate what seems like the gradual opening of your mind.<br><br>And now ...<br><br>There are lots of people, including young people (if they don't dominate the scene), that are genuinely interested in Low Saxon and want to learn it, not only in Germany but all over the world. Some of them are of Low Saxon background, others are not. I keep getting messages asking me if there are any courses, textbooks and such. I have to tell them basically "No." Yes, there is some stuff floating around here and there but nothing that amounts to an actual course, certainly none offered to people that don't know German.
<br><br>Now image someone comes up with such a course. The positive side of it would be that, if well done, it might have the potential of creating more interest through access, and this, through international attention, could strengthen prestige and confidence. (The power of international attention should never be underestimated.) Now image the typical reaction among the typical naysayers in Northern Germany. "What kind of weird dialect is that?" -- "It's a horrible mishmash!" -- "We don't talk like that in
<span style="font-style: italic;">our</span> village." ... After all, there <span style="font-style: italic;">is</span> no standard language, so the best you can do is what radio stations such as Radio Bremen do: come up with a mixture or a variety of dialects. Alternatively, you could pick a single dialect from which it is easy to understand other dialects. Colin Wilson did something similar when he wrote the first-ever Scots textbook (with CD).
<br><br>If the language is to survive and especially if it is to <span style="font-style: italic;">gain</span> users we have to get over this nitpicking negativity. If the language is to survive -- and bear in mind that change
<span style="font-style: italic;">is </span>inevitable -- we have to counteract the current negativity and fragmentation. People have to embrace the notion of many varieties of <span style="font-style: italic;">one</span>
language. This is done in all other languages, and it is this that keeps it going. A closed society can only preserve a single dialect or a small dialect group, so that isn't an option in this case, certainly not an option if you look at the entire language.
<br><br>Alternatively, you could work toward allowing a small number of dialect groups to develop their own linguae francae (Northern LS, Eastern Frisian LS, Westphalian LS, Estphalian LS, Drenthe LS, etc.). An example of this is Kurdish which started with several groups, and over time these have dwindled to three, thus three "standard" languages (Kurmanji, Sorani and Kelhuri, also referred to as Northern, Central and Southern respectively). Armenian developed two: Eastern and Western. Sorbian also developed two: Lower and Upper. Catalan-Valencian-Balearic now sees itself as one language with three standards. It can be done. The main objective is not only survival but also advancement, and this objective can only be reached if everyone is on the same page, so to speak. Yes, there will always be disagreements as to what to choose and how to implement what. Sometimes the problems and positions may seem intractable, but they
</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">are </span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">only really so if there's unbending, destructive negativity, backbiting, lack of cooperation, and sabotage. The best shot you have to overcome those is to constantly remind people that fundamentally they are all on the same side of the battle. It's too easy to forget this when you deal with details.
<br><br>Noug' preysterd!<br><br>Reinhard/Ron<br><br></span>----------<br><span><font face="Courier"><br></font></span>From: <span id="_user_wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Paul Finlow-Bates <
<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span><span id="_user_altkehdinger@freenet.de" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);"></span><br>Subject: LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.03.23
(01) [E/S]<br><br><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><div><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">From: "Isaac M. Davis" <<a href="mailto:isaacmacdonalddavis@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
isaacmacdonalddavis@gmail.com</a>></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Subject: LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.03.22 (04) [E]</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Sandy,</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">A
hae thocht this masel, aboot Scots. As A hae said afore, A'm a student
o the Irish leid, an A read aboot the tribbles wi that leid, an think
tae masel that Scots is lucky, ye micht weel say, that the leid
competin wi it is sae close kin. As it is, there's a braid spectrum o
leid varieties, some that ye coud cry English, some that are clear
Scots, an a muckle o ithers, neither fish nor fowl. Gin the braidest o
the braid (weel, laist English o the lot) dee oot, there's still mair
kinds o speech that isna quite English. Gin ye arena speakin Irish,
ye're speakin English. No spectrum, no varieties in between. </span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">I've
thought this myself, about Scots. As I've said before, I'm a student of
the Irish language, and I read about the troubles with that language,
and think to myself that Scots is lucky, you might say, that the
language competing with it is so closely related. As it is, there's a
broad spectrum of language varieties, some that you could call English,
some that are clear Scots, and a lot of othothers, neither fish nor
fowl. If the broadest of the broad (well, the least English of the lot)
die out, there's still more kinds of speech that aren't quite English.
If you aren't speaking Irish, you're speaking English. No spectrum, no
varieties in between. </span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Isaac M. Davis</span><span><br></span></div></span>
<p>Hi Isaac</p>The difference is that Scots is a direct
descendant of one of the closely related Anglo-Saxon or Old English
dialects, as is English. English speakers didn't introduce English to
Scotland to be then modified by local speakers, Scots has the same
"Lowlands Pedigree" as English - arguably moreso as it tends to have
less foreign borrowings. These two "Sister Languages" have interacted
to create the spectrum you speak of; in fact the spectrum has probably
always been there, as much as within England. The modern
England/Scotland border is relatively young compared with the history
of Low German in Britain.
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif;">The
situation in Ireland is rather different. Although Germanic languages
were spoken in the island in the First Millenium CE, with Norse and
possibly Saxon settlers, there is no continuity from there to the
present day as there is in England and Scotland; all Irish English is
derived from a more recent import, deriving from some form of Modern
English in the broadest linguistic sense, mostly post 1500.</div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif;">Paul Finlow-Bates</div><br></div><br>
•
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