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<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 23 March 2007 - Volume 04<br><br>=========================================================================<br><br>From: <span id="_user_sandy@scotstext.org" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Sandy Fleming
</span><span style="font-weight: normal;" class="lg"> <<a href="mailto:sandy@scotstext.org">sandy@scotstext.org</a>></span><br>Subject: LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.03.23 (01) [E/S]<br><br><div style="direction: ltr;">
> From: "Ben J. Bloomgren" <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:Ben.Bloomgren@asu.edu">Ben.Bloomgren@asu.edu</a>><br>> Subject: LL-L "Language maintenance"
2007.03.22 (04) [E]<br>><br>> Thar's aye sadness wheneyr a mither tongue dees. Yea the land o the<br>> leel's aye fair, but ye ken, aa canna view the wab pages o a tongue<br>> that's nar the end o its time, for as Jonny did proclaim, one less
<br>> method o talkin remains.<br>><br>> Ok, probably the worst Scots you've ever seen, but please try to help<br>> if possible!<br><br>No, I've seen Ron's early attempts :)<br><br>The "Land o the Leal" is Heaven, I suspect from the context you think
<br>otherwise! Or do dead languages go there?<br><br>Which language is near the end of its time?<br></div><span class="sg"><br>Sandy Fleming<br><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://scotstext.org/" target="_blank">
http://scotstext.org/</a></span><br><br>----------<br><br>From: <span id="_user_altkehdinger@freenet.de" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Jonny Meibohm <<a href="mailto:altkehdinger@freenet.de">altkehdinger@freenet.de</a>
></span><span style="font-weight: normal;" class="lg"></span><span style="font-weight: normal;" class="lg"></span><br>Subject: LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.03.23 (04) [E]<br>
<br>
<div><span><font face="Courier">Beste Sandy,
Ron,</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">Sandy
schreyv:</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier"><font color="#008080">Jonny, could you consider using fewer emotive adjectives? It makes
it <br>difficult to take your arguments seriously.</font> </font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">Well- are my
arguments really not serious or is it just my emotional German-Slavonic
exaggeration standing against British understatement ;-)? My mother liked to say
<em>"Von Zeit zu Zeit muss man seine slavische Seele baumeln lassen",</em> E:
"From time to time one has to dangle one's Slavonic soul"
;-)!</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font color="#008080" face="Courier">When you
say "the soul is already leaving the body" what do you mean? It<br>sounds like
you think it's too late and nothing could save LS - oh wait <br>- when you say
LS you sometimes mean the LS spoken by older people and<br>you sometimes mean
the LS as it's spoken (or not?) now, so nobody can<br>ever really know what
you're talking about. What are "LS-languages"? <br>Does the poetic body/soul
analogy really apply to languages or is it<br>just another emotive
appeal?</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span></span> <span><font face="Courier">You're quite right; it's
hard to follow me in some points! I tend to simplify facts because I'm often too
lazy to write so long textes in English. Sometimes I tend to take the first
adjectives which come into my mind, so as 'freaky' or 'crazy', where I should
make some more investigations in a *good* dictionary. If you didn't understand
me it partly could be caused by my insufficient
English.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier"><u>I
mean:</u></font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">1. LS-languages will
survive, because there is a lot of people busy to document all knowledge,
sources etc. which still can be found. And- they can make it more public
than it was in the past.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div><span></span>
<div><span><font face="Courier">2. The language which
survives this way is a different language, compared with the language of the
oldies <strong>and</strong> with the language still spoken within (rural)
communities today. It will have passed a kind of filter or rectifier-
<strong>different from an evolutionary development</strong>! Having written in
past about this fact again and again I have in mind projects like these: <a href="http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6%C3%B6ftsiet" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6%C3%B6ftsiet
</a> </font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">The four or even
more considerable different varieties of LS-language*s* you find in Germany
(and in The Netherlands perhaps about the same) aren't represented here for the
reason of (necessary?) equalization in a modern medium. People working at
that project try to use a variety close to the
[Northern-]Hamburg/Lower-Elbe-dialect. This way other
LS-communities get dropped and ruled.</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">In a previous mail (LL-L
"Language maintenance" 2007.03.23 (02) [E/S]) Ron wrote to this
problem:</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font color="#000080" face="Arial">If the
language is to survive and especially if it is to <span style="font-style: italic;">gain</span> users we have to get over this nitpicking
negativity. If the language is to survive -- and bear in mind that change
<span style="font-style: italic;">is </span>inevitable -- we have to counteract
the current negativity and fragmentation. People have to embrace the
notion of many varieties of <span style="font-style: italic;">one</span>
language. This is done in all other languages, and it is this that keeps
it going. A closed society can only preserve a single dialect or a small
dialect group, so that isn't an option in this case, certainly not an option if
you look at the entire language. <br>Alternatively, you could work toward
allowing a small number of dialect groups to develop their own linguae francae
(Northern LS, Eastern Frisian LS, Westphalian LS, Estphalian LS, Drenthe LS,
etc.).</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">Ron- I'm not sure to
understand you correctly.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">More than one composition
now? I'm also convinced that it could make sense to create 'subspecies'
from a mixture of closely related dialects, for example as EF LS and
Drenthe LS or East- and Westphalian LS combined with perhaps the Haidjer
dialect.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">Shouldn't
people this way less be forced to 'forget' their regional dialects
they've learned in their communities? Less be forced to learn another kind
of language? Let me tell: if the domination, the base of a futural LS (so as
perhaps in the above mentioned project) would be e.g. Eastphalian I for
myself even shouldn't have any interest for it, because I'd find
it too hard to understand. It would be worthless for <em>my</em> own use
and pleasure, and this way the speakers of other dialects must
feel reading <em>my</em> <em>'</em>Platt'.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">Just two(??) days ago you
wrote positively about the project, i.e. contributions in
a LS-mixture, of Radio Bremen. I agree: many, also <em>native</em>
LS-speakers, like it very much. But we shouldn't forget that the
transmission-range of that station is limited for the more western parts
of Northern Germany, i.e. for that region people haven't already much
diffculties to understand each others dialect.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div><span></span>
<div><span><font face="Courier">3. The question of soul
or not soul within a language of course depends on the position and
expectance of the viewer. Nobody can deny that a lot of postings here on the
list and various contributions in literature elsewhere deal with feelings
(emotions!!, Sandy- watch out ;-)) towards any home language- that kind of
dialect which gave people the safety to be a member of any community. I
even dare to say: people living abroad, e.g. in the U.S. or in Australia <font color="#ff00ff">(thanks, Peter, at this point that you enjoy to take part in
my emotions ;-)) </font><font color="#000000">sometimes show more emotional
connection to their 'old' languages as people born, grown up and still living in
their home country. Isn't it a kind of soul they're looking
for?</font></font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">I remember how eager I
was to learn another variety of LS (Eastern Frisian in this case) when I for
professional reasons had to live in that region. I wanted to become included, to
be part of their social life and to be within their rank order- just
the same as in my early youth concerning
*my* <em>home</em>-LS.</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">The same wouldn't happen
I fear if there just would be any supra-regional, semi-artificial, just
<em>additional</em> language. I can't imagine anyone to use it in daily
life.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">And here I come back
to the beginning:</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Courier"><em>The language which
survives this way is a different language, compared with the language of the
oldies <strong>and</strong> with the language still spoken within (rural)
communities today.</em></font></span></div>
<div><span><em></em></span> </div><span><em></em></span>
<div><span><font face="Courier">Sandy, you further
wrote:</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font color="#008080" face="Courier">I don't
think your argument is valid at all. You say that the Mennonites <br>kept
Plautdietsch alive because of isolation, you say Frisians<br>re-animated their
language because they feel something special as<br>community. And your
conclusion is that [minority language] survival will<br>be in rural communities?
It doesn't follow. <br></font></span></div>
<div><span> <font face="Courier">Perhaps all the
arguments above can help you to follow: I don't think and point out anywhere
that the <em>old</em></font></span><span><font face="Courier"> languages which people still speak today have any guarantee
to survive in any special European rural communities. Far from it! I
pointed out that it will be that <em>compulsory modernized</em> language which
survives- for the use mainly by some craz...-sorry ;-)- intellectuals, linguists
and *fans*. <em>(And perhaps some nostalgical Americans and Aussies will do, and
specially for their benefit we should keep an alert eye on any project
dealing with LS in the WWW. Perhaps they'll still find something reminding
them at a 'soulful' language here.)</em></font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">But: in rural communities
we find <em>more</em> people than in urban areas who still use their
LS-dialect in daily life. If we give support to them we perhaps could extend
the time till their dialects definitely vanish, G:<em>'ihre Seele
aushauchen' (to exhale their souls, meaning: to die)</em>.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">But not for the prize of
any civil war ;-)!</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">All the best and very
kind greetings</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">Jonny
Meibohm</font></span></div><br>----------<br><br>From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>Subject: Language maintenance<br><br>Jonny,<br><br>I never suggested that <span style="font-style: italic;">
any</span> speaker should be forced or feel obligated to give up his or her dialect. What I have suggested all along is more of a unified way of <span style="font-style: italic;">writing</span> those dialects, because it is mostly the divergent spelling "methods" that keep people apart. Once people open their minds and start reading other people's writings I expect that a loose "standard" will start to evolve. But that doesn't mean that people should give up their local dialects either, just that there will be a loose written standard language as a second or third step in the development, and people should feel free to use it or not to use it. This is a bit similar to Nynorsk Norwegian. It doesn't have hard and fast rules, and most people's home dialects shine through clearly when they speak and write, yet there is a sense of a general language community. They are way ahead, but theirs has been a bumpy road also.
<br><br>Creating sub-groups with their own standards would in my opinion be possible but would be a "soft option." It would most likely do away with fragmentation only in part, and it would be likely to lead to permanent separation or only very loose affiliation between the groups.
<br><br>In some case such separation may be warranted. One such case may be Shetlandic having a separate standard from Mainstream Scots, in large part because there are great linguistic and cultural differences, mostly due to strong Scandinavian heritage on the islands.
<br><br>Nevertheless, if there are subgroups with their own standards, I would hope that they'd have basic spelling guidelines in common so as to facilitate mutual comprehension in writing and thus not sever old connections.
<br><br>I hope this made it clearer.<br><br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br><br>----------<br><br>From: <span id="_user_Dutchmatters@comcast.net" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <<a href="mailto:Dutchmatters@comcast.net">
Dutchmatters@comcast.net</a>></span><br>
Subject: LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.03.23 (06) [E<br>
<br><p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Dear Ron, Jonny, Ben. Peter and others
that have contributed to this string of "Language Maintenance". I
have been reading your "back and forecies" with great interest and
oddly enough emotionality. I finally came to the conclusion that: We all inherit
a certain amount of "culture". Some of it makes us feel good and
some of it does not. It behooves all of us to actively cherish those good parts
and polish them, share them with our children, and show them to the world
around us. Without us doing that the world would become a very sterile place.
Go plant your gardens! Jacqueline</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">PS and Peter, you may add "mok"
to your collection. <br></span></font></p><br>
•
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