<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 29 March 2007 - Volume 04</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">=========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: Marcel Bas <<a href="mailto:roepstem@hotmail.com">roepstem@hotmail.com</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "History" 2007.03.30 (01) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">John Welch wrote:</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">>It seems that the people noted by Snorri the Ases (Alans), or Asir may have been the Azer (which >means Fire in Persian and High in Turkic)
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Herman(n) Wirth thought that the the Ases' name originated from the word 'Asia'. Ases were gods and not mortals like the Alans. But then again, Wirth also thought that certain tribes have been deified in later mythologies, like the Wodan cult had been doing during and after the great Indo European migrations.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Do you think it is likely that a word like Alans has lead to a word like Asir?
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Best regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Marcel. </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_mrdreyer@lantic.net" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Mark Dreyer <<a href="mailto:mrdreyer@lantic.net">mrdreyer@lantic.net</a>></span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg"></span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span>
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "History" 2007.03.30 (01) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div>Dear John:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Subject: L-Lowlands<br></div><span class="q">
<div>Here is a quote from David Faux "DNA Origins of R1a, Q and K in
Scandinavia". </div>
</span><blockquote dir="ltr" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;"><span class="q">
<div>His history may be as brave
as his science is:<br><br></div>
<div>(quote)."Basically Snorri said
that the ancestors of the Norse kings resided east of the river Don, and were
led by Odin, who had vast holdings south of the Ural Mountains. He and his
people were known as Ases, or Asir, and after many battles (in one case his
possession of a severed head is emphasized), he left two brothers in charge of
his main power base along a ridge of the Caucasus Mountains (Asgaard - likely
Chasgar) and with his people headed north. Most, however were men as apprently
they took "women of the land" in Scandanavia as wives.</div>
<div> </div></span>
<div>I won't challenge the quote of Snorri
Sterlusson, but other parties than David Faux might bear in mind that the
so-called 'European' race is otherwise defined as 'Caucasian' on rather better
paleo-anthropoligical grounds. Our common ancestor predated the Wurm
Glaciation, which can not be said of the Woden-born, the Aesir, or
Scandanavians. Common gene-tracers may go back at least that far.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>In the old Viking zones of settlement, moreover,
the Norse families all had slaves who
were not as a matter of course - well - Norse. I estimate the number of slaves
in a non-plantation type economy amounted to about one-on-one of Norsemen. Now
Ibn Batuta writes of Norse slave traders which make it clear that there was a
trans-Eurasian market in human chattels. A slave with a rare & desirable
craft was a highly marketable commodity,& a comely one of exotic racial
origins even more so! </div>
<div> </div>
<div>If not on the grounds of my first argument, then
at least on my second, I would expect or at least not be unduly surprised to
find traces of Eastern Samoyed blood-lines, or others even more remote,even in
Iceland, so isolated a gene-pool as it may be. What does it
prove?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Yrs,</div>
<div>Mark<br></div></blockquote></div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yhoo.com">sassisch@yhoo.com</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: History</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">John,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">آذر </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">āzar </span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">does indeed mean 'fire' Iranian languages, in Kurdish
<span style="font-style: italic;">agir</span>.
Being only one word for 'fire', it occurs especially in contexts of
ancient fire cults. Note, though, that the word is written with the
letter ﺫ </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">zāl </span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">(< Arabic </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
ḍāl</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">)
usually used in Arabic loans and pronounced [z] in Persian in lieu of the
foreign sound. Somehow it must have gotten reinterpreted as Arabic,
because it does seem to be of Iranian origin, derived from Avestan </span><i style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">ātar</i><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> > Middle Persian </span><i style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
ādar</i><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">~</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span><i style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
ādur</i><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">. (Any connection with Germany <span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">ild</span></span> 'fire' perhaps?)
Its use became pretty much specialized to denote the sacred fire of
Zoroastrianism. (The ordinary Persian word for 'fire' is اتش </span><i style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">āte</i><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">š</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
-- related perhaps.)</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">And in which Turkic language(s) does </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">azer </span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">mean
'high'? I have never come across it. If it's a compound (which
virtually all native words with more than one syllables are), then </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">az </span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">'few' and </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
är </span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">'man',
'men' spring to mind ("select few men"?). If it is a loanword, chances
are it's an Iranian one (less likely a Mongolic one). In that case I
wouldn't be able to make the semantic connection between 'fire' and
'high'. Or is it perhaps an Old Anatolian loan?</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">The name "Azerbaijan" does indeed contain the word for fire. It is an Arabized form of Persian </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Āzarābādagān</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> (</span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">āzar </span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">'fire', </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
ābādag</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> 'cultivated land', </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">-ān</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> [plural]), thus something like "region of fire clearings."
<br><br>Mark:<br><br>Obviously, Eurasia is an ancient melting pot with people migrating to and fro, and most ethnic groups that donated their genes never even got as much as a cursory mention, mostly because they were chattle of various sorts. Latest DNA research seems to point toward settlement of early Europe mostly from (Central) Asia.
<br><br>As you no doubt know, the eastern branch of the Huns (匈奴 Xiongnu < *<span style="font-style: italic;">Hiunnu</span>) attacked China and their western branch attacked Europe. Chinese sources of the Tang (唐 618–907), Song (宋 960–1279) and Yuan (元 1271–1368) dynasties mention all sorts of foreigners in the country, apparently including blond-haired dancing girls. And that is the relatively recent past. Bear in mind the mummies recently unearthed in Eastern Turkestan (China's Xinjiang), some as old as four thousand years, with what seems like Caucasian characteristics, wearing clothes woven in a manner elsewhere only known in Western Europe. Of course, this does not need to mean that those people immigrated here or there, but it may point toward larger spreads in ancient times. Yes, Sogdians and other Iranian people used to live in that area. They may have been merely a remnant, people left behind by those that migrated westward. When you visit the Buddhist funerary caves of Western China, especially the Mogao Caves (莫高窟) of Dunhuang (敦煌), China's Gate to Central Asia in Gansu (甘肃) province, you'll be struck by the wall paintings depicting congregations of bodhisattvas and worshippers of all sorts of "races," with a predominance of what appear to be East Asians, Indians and Iranians, with the odd "European-looking" type thrown in.
<br><br>Westerners still have a hard time getting their little heads around the idea of such sorts of ancient migrations and contacts, still prefer to believe that Marco Polo discovered China.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">