<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 25 April 2007 - Volume 03</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">=========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_Karl-Heinz.Lorenz@gmx.net" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Karl-Heinz Lorenz <<a href="mailto:Karl-Heinz.Lorenz@gmx.net">
Karl-Heinz.Lorenz@gmx.net</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.04.21 (03) [D]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">> From: Roland Desnerck <</span><a style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:desnerck.roland@skynet.be">
desnerck.roland@skynet.be</a><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">> Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2007.04.20
(01) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">> Beste Lowlanders,
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">> Ook in het Nederlands wordt "voorwoord" (preface) veel gebruikt, maar dit</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">> wordt beschouwd als een germanisme (d.i. uit het Duits) en dus als een</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">> fout.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">> Het "goede" Nederlands is "woord vooraf"!</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
> Toetnoasteki én hoed junder an 't gas (tot volgende keer en hou jullie</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">> vast</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">> aan het gras).</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">> Roland Desnerck, Oostende, West-Vlaanderen.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Sind
diese Regeln bezüglich Germanismen auch heute noch gültig? Was ist,
wenn wie im vorliegenden Fall auch eine englische Entsprechung, nämlich
"foreword", existiert? Ist der germanistische Fehler dann geheilt? Oder
gibt es auch Regeln gegen Anglizismen?</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Grüß Gott (Groet god?)</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Karl-Heinz</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_desnerck.roland@skynet.be" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Roland Desnerck</span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg"> <<a href="mailto:desnerck.roland@skynet.be">desnerck.roland@skynet.be</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.04.24 (05) [A/D/E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<font size="2">Beste Lowlanders,</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">"Nazaten" en "voorzaten" hebben inderdaad
alles te maken met "zitten". Ik voeg er dit uit het Oostendse
West-Vlaams nog an toe:</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">"zoate": zadel van een fiets</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">"zoate": scheepswerf, meer bepaald de ingesmeerde
glijbaan voor de tewaterlating </font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">"wienterzoate": toen de Oostendse haven nog niet
gegraven was (voor 1446), werden de haringschepen 's winters op een min of meer
beschermde plaats, bijvoorbeeld achter uitstekende (hm! twee betekenissen)
duinen getrokken; men noemde dit de "haryncscepen hieden"; "omme te hiedene"
betekende dan de visserschepen een veilige schuilplaats geven; vandaar de op
onze kust voorkomende plaatsnamen Blutsijde, Koksijde, Lombardsijde,
Raversijde.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Sommigen kenden die oorsprong niet en voelden de
behoefte om te schrijven Lombardzijde; het is dus wel degelijk niet Lombard +
zijde, maar Lombards + ijde (ouder "hyde).</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Toetnoasteki én stêld et wêl!</font></div><span class="sg">
<div><font style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" face="Arial" size="2">Roland Desnerck uit Oostende Stad aan
Zee <br><br>----------<br><br></font><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_altkehdinger@freenet.de" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Jonny Meibohm <<a href="mailto:altkehdinger@freenet.de">
altkehdinger@freenet.de</a>></span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg"></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.04.24 (05) [A/D/E]</span><br><br><div><span><font face="Courier">Dag, Elsie un
Marcel,</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">Elsie
schreyv:</font></span></div><span class="q">
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font color="#000080" face="Courier" size="2">>
'nasate' means "afstammelinge" or in German "Abstammenden".</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div></span>
<div><span><font face="Courier">Bedankt, Elsie! Ick haar
schriiben schull'n G: <strong>'Nachfahre'</strong>- dat weyr 't
ween...</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">Marcel
schreyv:</font></span></div><span class="q">
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">> Wat vreemd, dat je
'Erbsate' schrijft als een LS woord. Kent het LS ook de Hoogduitse verschuiving
van v > naar b?</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div></span>
<div><span><font face="Courier">Dank Dii föör dit
opmarking! Dat schull in ons LS korrekt ouk "Arv-Sate" or "Erv-Sate" ween, man-
dat is eyn juristischen 'terminus technicus' wesen un van de greesigen
Schriiverslüüd ;-) in oule Tiiden all halv tou Houghdüütsch mookt
worr'n.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">Mit de
Verschuuven/Verschuuben in onsen Regiolekt is dat eyn avv-sünnerk' Saak: welk'
Woyr sünd verschooben, anner nich. Froog inns Reinhard, dey weyt door wat beter
üm Bescheyd- misschiin hett hey door gänzli' 'n Regel föör.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">'n poor
Bispeel'n:</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">LS: hebben, ick
hebb'; G: haben, ich
habe <em>(to have)</em></font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">LS: schriiben, ick
schriiv; G: schreiben, ich schreibe <em>(to
write)</em></font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">LS: gloyben, ick
gloyv; G: glauben, ich
glaube <em>(to believe)</em></font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">LS:
Duuv;
G: Taube <em>(pigeon)</em></font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">LS: Hoben, inne
Hoov; G: Hafen, im
Hafen <em>(haven)</em></font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">LS:
Driiber;
G: Treiber <em>("driver", beater)</em></font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">LS:
Driivwark;
G: "Treibwerk" (Scheunendurchfahrt) <em>(a gate and way through a big
barn)</em></font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">LS: tribeleyr'n, ick
tribeleyr; G: "zwiebeln", quälen <em>(to tease
so.)</em>
</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">Mennigmool weyt ick et
sülbst ne; ick hebb'/'hevv' mol foyr eyn Stood in Eastern Friesland leevt, un
door geiht dat meist al'ns op 'v'.</font></span></div>
<div> </div>
<div align="left"><font face="Courier">Allerbest!</font></div>
<div align="left"> </div>
<font face="Courier">Jonny Meibohm</font><br></div></span><br><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="sg"><font size="2">----------<br>
<br>
</font>From: <span id="_user_altkehdinger@freenet.de" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);"></span></span><span id="_user_ezinsser@icon.co.za" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Maria Elsie Zinsser <
<a href="mailto:ezinsser@icon.co.za">ezinsser@icon.co.za</a>></span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="sg"><span id="_user_altkehdinger@freenet.de" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);"></span><span style="font-weight: normal;" class="lg">
</span><br>
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">LL-L "Etymology" 2007.04.24 (05) [A/D/E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Hi all,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Ron, you have to mention it that we do keep
the t-final as diacronic remnant in some plurals, such as in beeste
(bees) and also in other forms, for example, bars - gebarste. But not
in Kersfees (Kerstfees) or plaas (>plaats)</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="sg"> <br>Elsie Zinsser<br><br>----------<br><br>From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">
sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>Subject: Etymology<br><br>Jonny, dat mit <span style="font-style: italic;">b </span>~ <span style="font-style: italic;">v</span> kümt up d'n dialekt an. In 't Old-Sassische schreyven se 't mit 'n "b" mit 'n streek dörch; dat kan 'n bilabiaal "b" west syn (as in Spaansch). Nu hebt wy düt in de dialekten:
<br></span><ol style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><li>b ~ v ~ b (schryben - hey schrivt -[ft] / wy schryvt [ft] - ik (schrybe >) schryb' [b])</li><li>v ~ v ~ v (schryven - hey schrivt -[ft] / wy schryvt [ft] - ik schryve > schryv' [v])
</li><li>b ~ v ~ v (schryben - hey schrivt -[ft] / wy schryvt [ft] - k schryve > schryv' [v])*</li></ol><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Duytsche schryvwys':</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<ol style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><li>b ~ v ~ b (schrieben - he schrifft / wi schrieft - ik (schriebe >) schrieb' )</li><li>v ~ v ~ v (schrieven - he schrifft / wi schrieft - ik (schrieve >) schriev')
</li><li>b ~ v ~ v (schrieben - he schrifft / wi schrieft - ik (schriebe >) schriev')*</li></ol>
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="sg"></span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">1 is 'n "b"-dialekt, 2 'n "v"-dialekt, un 3 'n mengeleyrden dialekt (schull eygentlich 1 syn).
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Nu dat de sleyptoon an de kant is, daar segt un schryvt 'n barg minschen "ik schrief".
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Elsie:</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">> Ron, you have to mention it that we do keep
the t-final as diacronic remnant in some plurals, such as in beeste
(bees) </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">> and also in other forms, for example, bars - gebarste.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Oh, the now-you-see/hear-it-now-you-don't t? ;-) Yes, it's there, underlyingly. As far as I can tell, the phonological rule is:</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">t -> Ø / C_#<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">In other words, underlying /t/ is deleted at the end of a syllable if it's preceded by another consonant. However, the way it's presented in the orthography makes it look as though it's
</span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">inserted</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> when it becomes the onsent of the next syllable. From a phonological point of view it should be written in all cases (which would also be helpful to the learner), and then the deletion rule applies wherever applicable;
e.g.;</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">beest [<a href="http://bi.es">bi.es</a>] - beeste ["bi.est
@]<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Groete,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span>
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">P.S.: Back to levity! Arthur demonstrated his sheer brilliance by reminding me that "bees' ears" are where bees' wax comes from. I wish I had thought of that.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br>