<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 30 April 2007 - Volume 05</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">=========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_wintzermichel@wanadoo.fr" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">MWI</span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg">
<<a href="mailto:wintzermichel@wanadoo.fr">wintzermichel@wanadoo.fr</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2007.04.22
(03) [E]</span><br><br><div><font color="#000080" face="Comic Sans MS" size="4">Don't have the answers,
Ron.</font></div>
<div><font color="#000080" face="Comic Sans MS" size="4">But I have a
question:</font></div>
<div><font color="#000080" face="Comic Sans MS" size="4">Why do you (feel obliged?),
when you cite the</font></div>
<div><font color="#000080" face="Comic Sans MS" size="4">name "Middle Saxon" to add
in brackets</font></div>
<div><font color="#000080" face="Comic Sans MS" size="4">"(Middle Low
German)".</font></div>
<div><font color="#000080" face="Comic Sans MS" size="4">Is this to make it clear
for the ignorants?</font></div>
<div><font color="#000080" face="Comic Sans MS" size="4">To my way of thinking this
equation is even</font></div>
<div><font color="#000080" face="Comic Sans MS" size="4">wrong, if for no other
reason than an</font></div>
<div><font color="#000080" face="Comic Sans MS" size="4">ideological
one.</font></div>
<div><font color="#000080" face="Comic Sans MS" size="4">Kumpelmenten,
<em>Mike (Wintzer)</em></font></div>
<div><em></em> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">----- Original Message -----
</div>
<div style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">
<b>From:</b>
<a title="lowlands.list@gmail.com" href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">Lowlands-L List</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b> <a title="LOWLANDS-L@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" href="mailto:LOWLANDS-L@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
LOWLANDS-L@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>
</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 23, 2007 7:57
AM</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b> LL-L "Delectables"
2007.04.22
(03) [E]</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br></div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: Delectables</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Folks,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Here's a tasty little morsel for those
among you that are interested in language contacts and in naming of foodstuff
with a hefty Lowlands twist.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">In Draveno-Polabian (a Slavonic language
once spoken on the Lunenburg Heath, see </span><a style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" href="http://tinyurl.com/yq3vxf" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">tinyurl.com/yq3vxf</a><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
), the word </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">wris(o)</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> means '(firm) cheese'. It is
believed to be derived from Middle Saxon (Middle Low German) </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">vrêsch</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> meaning 'Frisian'. Apparently, this
referred to sliceable, matured cheese, the type that came to be known as
"Dutch cheese." (The fresher, softer cheese was referred to as </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">sar(o)</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> (< Slavonic *
</span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">syr(a) </span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">.)</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">To top it off, the type of cheese then
(in the 18th century) considered best among Polabs (and their Saxon
neighbors?) was called </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">ingelsa
wriso</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> in Polabian, thus
literally "English Frisian." The German glosses of the time identify it
as the best Dutch cheese to be had. So at least in German it was
considered Dutch. </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Was this just "Dutch" in the catch-all
sense ("under Hollandish power"), or was there a difference between "Dutch"
and "Frisian" when it came to cheese? Did the Saxons and their Slavonic
neighbors make a distinction here that in German was absent? </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Was "English" just a fancy word for "way
out there," or was English-style cheese indeed considered a notch up from its
Frisian or Dutch cousins? </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Wondering ...<br></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron<br><br>----------<br><br>From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: Language varieties</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Thanks, Mike.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
I agree that I ought not feel obligated to add those "explanatory" labels, but I got into this habit because I got tired of having to respond to private email messages asking for explanations. Perhaps I'll try it again without and see if that has subsided.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">As you know, in Germany the language varieties got renamed to make them sound German:
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><ol style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><li><span style="font-style: italic;">Altsächsisch</span> > <span style="font-style: italic;">Altniederdeutsch</span><br>Old Saxon > Old Low German
</li><li><span style="font-style: italic;">Mittelsächsisch </span>> <span style="font-style: italic;">Mittelniederdeutsch</span><br>Middle Saxon > Middle Low German</li><li><span style="font-style: italic;">Niedersächsisch
</span>> <span style="font-style: italic;">Niederdeutsch</span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">Plattdeutsch</span><br>Low(er) Saxon > Low German<br></li></ol><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Niederdeutsch </span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">(Low German) is ambiguous in that it can mean three things:</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><ol style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><li>
the Low German language group (consisting of Low Franconian and Low Saxon)</li><li>the Low German (both Low Franconian and Low Saxon) varieties used in Germany</li><li>Low Saxon varieties used in Germany</li></ol><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
However, this has been enshrined in Germany and Austria (and to a large degree in Switzerland), and Germanics departments in other countries tend to follow it, assumedly because their head honchos got educated at German-speaking universities or by German head honchos, and they and their students largely depend upon funding from German and Austrian sources, or from German-oriented sources elsewhere, few of which would look kindly upon heretic naming.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">As for ambiguous labeling, there are similar things out there. For instance, "Dutch" can include all Hollandish, Brabantish and Flemish varieties, in some people's books even including Limburgish, Netherlands Low Saxon and Afrikaans, but it can also specifically denote Standard Dutch. "Romanian" can mean the Romance language varieties of Romania, or it can include those as well as Moldavian and Aromanian (Vlach, Wallachian) ones. "Chinese" can mean "Mandarin" or specifically Standard Mandarin or can include all Sinitic languages.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Cheers!</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br>