<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 02 May 2007 - Volume 06</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">=========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_didimasure@hotmail.com" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Diederik Masure <<a href="mailto:didimasure@hotmail.com">
didimasure@hotmail.com</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.05.02 (04) [E/LS]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Wet iemand misschien toevallig oe da ge umlauttekens en dergelijke kunt
late weergeve? Ik krijg namelijk altijd alles door als bijv</span><font style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" color="#000000">. <span class="q"><br>"<font size="2">Nu steiht de NDR ok mit Johnny </font>Meier</span>
</font><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
in Seattle in Kontakt. De Vereen hett düt Johr jo 100jähriges Bestohn.
Dorför wöllt de Lüüd vun den NDR röberflegen un dat opteken."</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Anyone knows how I get rid of these weird symbols replacing umlaut and other diacriticals?
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_didimasure@hotmail.com" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Diederik Masure <<a href="mailto:didimasure@hotmail.com">
didimasure@hotmail.com</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.05.02 (04) [E/LS]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><div>
<p><span class="q"><font style="font-size: 11px; font-family: tahoma,sans-serif;">Also,
I am under the impression that most Sorbs have simply accepted the fact
that their languages are strongly German-influenced, and they are
moving on from there instead of moaning and groaning about declining
standards while the languages fade into oblivion in the meantime. <br></font></span><font style="font-size: 11px; font-family: tahoma,sans-serif;"><<<<br><br>That's
a very interesting thought. Here one of the reasons for not using
dialect among younger people is among others the feeling that we can't
speak it correctly anymore. Even most of my friends that think the
dialect should be spoken again, are pessimistic because eventhough
their parents speak it to them, they are not used to speaking it and
feel that their Antw. is not like 'it should be'. That their 'Dutch' is
not like it should be either is of course no point to anyone, as noone
is capable of speaking Dutch. But you'll often get a remark when they
hear you try to speak dialect, but hear that some sounds are wrong, or
with Dutch substrate words. (and as said will noone say anything when
they hear dialect substrate in your Dutch). <br>I think we should just accept that we can't speak like our grandparents anymore but that's a big step. </font></p></div></div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
---------</span><br><br>From: <span id="_user_bryans@lodging1.com" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">"Bryan E. Schulz" <<a href="mailto:bryans@lodging1.com">bryans@lodging1.com</a>></span><br>
Subject: LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.05.02 (04) [E/LS]<br><br><div id="mb_2">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font face="Georgia" size="2">Ron,</font></div><span class="q">
<div> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">"<font size="3">Also, I am under the
impression that most Sorbs have simply accepted the fact that their languages
are strongly German-influenced, and they are moving on from there instead of
moaning and groaning about declining standards while the languages fade into
oblivion in the meantime"</font></font></div>
<div> </div></span>
<div style="font-family: georgia;"><font size="2">Thank you for the observations and the
theory. You've answered the 'what' and 'how' of the question but
the 'why' remains elusive. The English language is NOT an easy
language to learn and confusing to the new learner yet it is a very widespread
language. The use of German(generic) is declining in the world.
French is struggling. My theory remains that the language of commerce in a
geographic area has the upper-hand. Assuming this is true, I
see little reason to believe that any minority language has much of a chance of
surviving the assult of the inter-net. On the other hand.... :-)),
the internet may be the ONLY chance of any minority language to
survive simply by the effect of operations such as this discussion
group started to preserve a language. Perhaps the greatest reason
many of these Germanic languages are fading into oblivion is that the population
of the speakers is quite rapidly declining. The north European
population have a birth rate that is below what is needed to sustain an ethnic
base. Perhaps it is simply in the numbers! It is totally concievable
to see a future Europe without any native characteristics. The continent
will be entirely repopulated by other ethnic groups with foriegn
languages. Cest' la vi !!<br><br></font><font size="2">Bryan E. Schulz</font></div></div></div><br><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Subject: Language maintenance</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Diederik, we send everything out in Unicode (UTF-8) encoding, so you need to switch your view mode to that.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Within the current discussion I once again remind everyone of the case of English, specifically the transition from Old English to Middle English. Under Norman rule, everyone who wanted to be someone used French as much as possible, and many ethnic English people switched to French as their first language. English was becoming a minority language, certainly had become a low-prestige language that had a hard time surviving in cities. After the Norman era it was a relatively small group of people (interestingly led by Cornishmen) that inspired people to take up English again and to help the language regain national status. While there were still archaic dialects in the countryside, the varieties of English used in the cities had become very much influenced by French, and the grammar was a far cry from that of Old English. In turn those more powerful French-influenced English dialects influenced the country dialects. Had people wasted time with the "purity" thing and all that bickering, English may not have survived in the long run.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Then there is Norway. In the cities, people used what was essentially Danish on Norwegian substrates after centuries of Danish rule. The more Danish you spoke and wrote the more prestigeous it was. Following Norwegian independence there was the Nynorsk movement that sought to resurrect "true" Norwegian on the basis of country dialects. This developed into Norway's second language, and its influences led to a more Norwegian character in Dano-Norwegian (Bokmål). Obviously, neither of the two Norwegian languages is "pure;" both are essentially compromises. After all, centuries of Danish rule and influences could not be wiped away just like that, just like the effects of the Norman Conquest of England could not be wiped away. And why
</span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">should </span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">they? They are parts of history, don't make the people and their languages and cultures "worse," just different.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">And there's Spain. During centuries of Arabic ("Moorish") rule, most Christians and Jews learned Arabic and used it besides their home community languages. In fact, Arabic proficiency became very prestigeous in all communities, and some of the most acclaimed Arabic language works of the time were written by Christians and Jews, not just prose but also poetry acclaimed throughout the Arabic-speaking world. In both Spain and Portugal, the local Romance languages developed new Arabized "Mozarabic" dialects (usually written with the Arabic script) as well as new poetic styles specific to these dialects. After the end of the lengthy
</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">era</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> of Arabic rule, a harsh wind blew through the land as Christianity was forced on everyone and there were attempts at "purifying" the land. However, numerous Arabic loanwords remained, as did many of the most magnificent "Moorish" artifacts, and much of today's music of Spain would not be the same without their Arabic-derived elements. Castilian and Andalusian in particular had become Arabized. So what? They moved on from there.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">When I talk about "preserving" a language I mean <span style="text-decoration: underline;">
maintaining</span> it, keeping it alive for as long as possible.* However, many people mean by it "preserving it as it is." In my opinion that is a pipe dream and amounts to wanting to soak it in formaldehyde and display it in a museum's glass case. How can you stop any language or culture from developing, even in isolation? Languages have always developed by means of internal shifts in combination with foreign influences (yes, even Icelandic). The quest for purity, which still haunts especially Continental Europe, has led to more bad than good and in the case of languages constitutes the greatest threat besides external suppression. In fact, I consider it a form of suppression in that it seeks to hinder progress, thus adversely affects language maintenance (or loyalty) and thereby facilitates extinction.
<br><br>No, I am not talking about an out-and-out <span style="font-style: italic;">laissez-faire</span> approach here. In the long run it is the community of speakers that will decide the direction of development, but to begin with this requires sufficient tolerance to permit experimentation to explore the possibilities.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Reinhard/Ron<br><br>* P.S.: Bryan, I don't necessarily mean "preserving for all times."</span><br><br>