<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 06 May 2007 - Volume 01</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">=========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Paul Finlow-Bates <<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">
wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "History" 2007.05.05 (06) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<p style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: <span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Mark Dreyer <<a href="mailto:mrdreyer@lantic.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
mrdreyer@lantic.net </a>></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"></span><br>Subject: LL-L "History" 2007.05.05 (02) [E]<br><br>Subject: LL-L "History"
</p>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">You ask how it happened
that Rollo's Norseman were absorbed so quickly into the French
population? It's quite simple; they were a shiptake & more of men.
They took local women to wife, had locals in service, & any
business they did at all but drink with their cupmates was in French.
They were, however, very intelligent, & soon enough learned the
local argot, but it was the women & servants, not excluding the
priests, that taught their sons.</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Yrs,</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Mark <br></div><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">•
</span><p style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">There is a reference from the early 11thC of a Norman noble sending
his son to Caen "to learn the speech of his ancestors". This is
presumably Danish, and implies it was still used in Upper Circles
then. It also implies that most Normans, even upper class ones,
didn't.
</p><p style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">There is also a reference to a Norman family having a battle-cry
something like "Tur" into the 13thC. This could be either Thor or Tyr
in origin.
</p><p style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Clearly though, the Norman founders were very few in number, and
rapidly assimilated language, just as the Germanic Franks before them.
Of course, in England, the Normans went full-circle; they ended up
speaking a West Germanic language with major Scandinavian influences!
</p><p style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Paul Finlow-Bates</p><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
From: </span><span id="_user_theohoman@yahoo.com" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Theo Homan <<a href="mailto:theohoman@yahoo.com">theohoman@yahoo.com</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "History" 2007.05.05 (02) [E]</span>
<p style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Hallo,<br><br><...><br>> (BTW: *burgum *of course is of Germanic origin, not<br>> Latin!<br><br>> Jonny Meibohm<br>><br><...><br><br>We never can be sure about anything. And this makes
<br>life a lot easier.<br>Generally is accepted that 'bourg' in French<br>place-names is of Latin origin., i.e. lat. burgus.<br><br>There have been people who suggested that this Latin<br>word had been a loan from Germanic. And of course the
<br>initial 'b' might be subject to a couple of hundred<br>Phd's.<br><br>Let's say that there are more languages that preserved<br>an I-E word of this stem [so to say Celtic and Greek].<br><br>Cherbourg, meaning something like 'city of the Norman
<br>ships', has its name-giving most likely from the<br>French, so this 'bourg' has a non-Germanic origin.<br>I take this for sure.<br><br><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://vr.gr/" target="_blank">
vr.gr</a>.<br><span class="sg">Theo Homan</span><br><br>----------<br><br>From: <span id="_user_pat@caerlas.demon.co.uk" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Pat Reynolds</span><span style="font-weight: normal;" class="lg"> <
<a href="mailto:pat@caerlas.demon.co.uk">pat@caerlas.demon.co.uk</a>></span><br>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2007.05.05 (02) [E]</p><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">In message<br><<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:57c981290705051140r2a3a516fxc706464d84cd8e9c@mail.gmail.com">
57c981290705051140r2a3a516fxc706464d84cd8e9c@mail.gmail.com</a>>,<br>Lowlands-L List <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com">lowlands.list@gmail.com</a>> i.e
. Jonny writes<br>>Why did this happen so fast? Was it perhaps caused by the fact that the<br>>Normans/Vikings probablyweren't a homogeneous tribe with a common<br>>language/dialect and common culture?<br>>Were they too few people, just a very thin ruling upper class that
<br>>wasn't able to keep apart from theindigenous folks?But after 1066 in<br>>Britain they could influence language and culture over there so heavily!<br>><br>>Or was it just the fact that they found a culture/civilisation which
<br>>was higher developed than their own? Or a result of their fast<br>>christianization?<br>><br>>Or are there much more relics of the 'original' Normans I'm not aware<br>>of<br><br>I think the situation in England in 1066 was very different to the
<br>situation in northern France in earlier centuries.<br><br>But one can look at the impact that similar groups of Scandinavians had<br>on England (and Scotland, and Ireland) at the time the Normans were<br>going into France - with very different results (at least as far as
<br>place names go).<br><br>There is a lot of work being done now in Britain on dna - such as<br><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.wellcome.ac.uk/doc_WTX022535.html" target="_blank">
http://www.wellcome.ac.uk/doc_WTX022535.html</a>, and (bringing the Norman<br>invasion right up to date) on the DNA of people with the surname Norman<br>(see <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.normanfolk.org/dna/" target="_blank">
http://www.normanfolk.org/dna/</a>).<br><br>And In message<br><<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:57c981290705051950x18d4aec4yd7302b98cc46293e@mail.gmail.com">57c981290705051950x18d4aec4yd7302b98cc46293e@mail.gmail.com
</a>>,<br>Lowlands-L List <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com">lowlands.list@gmail.com</a>> Mark writes<br>>You ask how it happened that Rollo's Norseman were absorbed so quickly
<br>>into the French population? It's quite simple; they were a shiptake &<br>>more of men. They took local women to wife, had locals in service, &<br>>any business they did at all butdrink with their cupmates was in
<br>>French. They were, however, very intelligent, & soon enough learned the<br>>local argot, but it was the women & servants, not excluding the<br>>priests, that taught their sons<br><br>And that's what the dna says happened in Britain, too. I've been trying
<br>(and failing) to find anything on dna studies in France.<br><br>Cheers,<br><br>Pat<br></div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="sg">--<br>Pat Reynolds<br><br>It may look messy now ...<br> ... but just you come back in 500 years time (T. Pratchett).
<br><br>----------<br><br>From: </span><span id="_user_altkehdinger@freenet.de" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Jonny Meibohm <<a href="mailto:altkehdinger@freenet.de">altkehdinger@freenet.de
</a>><br><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Subject: </span></span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">LL-L "History" 2007.05.05 (06) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br><div id="mb_1">
<div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">Beste Paul and
Mark,</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">thanks for your
answers.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">You wrote, according to
my question about the French Normans loosing their language within one
generation:</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><u><font face="Courier">Arthur (in a previous
mail)</font></u></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">
<div align="left"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" align="left"><font color="#008080"><span>> </span>I thought there were at least a few -bec
and -torpe placenames in Normandy. I'll have to search Google
Maps.</font></div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<div align="left"> </div>
<div align="left"><font color="#008080"><span>>
</span>Paul Finlow-Bates</font></div></span></font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">Yes- I had been
searching before and found:</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier"><span><font face="Courier"><em>Le Bec</em>, an Abbey founded by
the Norman knight <em>Herluinus</em>, with French name <em>'Hellouin'. </em>I
wasn't sure about the <em>-bec</em> meaning something like a creek, LS:
Beek</font></span></font></span></div>
<div> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier"><em>Normanville</em><span><em>,</em> very obvious, but could be a French name as
well</span></font></span></div>
<div> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier"><em>Neubourg</em>, <span>sited
</span>NW of <strong>Évreux</strong> in the departement of
<strong>L'Eure</strong></font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><span><font face="Courier">I didn't find <em>-torpe </em>anywhere.</font></span></span></div><div> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier"><u>Mark</u></font></span></div><span class="q">
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Courier"><font color="#008080"><span>>
</span>You ask how it happened that Rollo's Norseman were absorbed so quickly
into the French population? It's </font></font></div>
<div><font face="Courier"><font color="#008080"><span>>
</span>quite simple; they were a shiptake & more of men.
</font></font></div>
<div> </div></span>
<div><span><font face="Courier">Hm- I don't
know anything about the number of invaders in France, but I read about the
fact that the Vikings invading Britain soon sent ships back to their home land
for 'civilians', e.g. settlers, women, perhaps children after the warriors
had conquered a certain piece of territory and could build a
beachhold.</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">But maybe things went
completely different on <em>The Island</em> than elsewhere on the Vikings tracks
throughout Europe.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier">Maybe that they just were
sick of fighting and roaming, and I guess there wasn't any wife or child waiting
for the maiority of them at any poor, miserable home. I could think that
their way of life was a damned hard job to do for a man over the age of 35. What
different kind of carreer should he start? Become a farmer or craftsman
after a life of fighting?</font></span></div>
<div> </div>
<div align="left"><font face="Courier">Allerbest!</font></div>
<div align="left"> </div>
<div align="left"><font face="Courier">Jonny Meibohm</font></div></div>
</div><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: History</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">In tracing possible Germanic elements in Normandy's names, I suggest one ought to consult not only French versions but Norman (</span>
<span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Nouorman</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">, including Channel Island dialect) ones as well in hopes of finding in them further leads. You also need to be aware that Latin names were very often made up and were likely to be subject to folk etymology. I suppose, though, that in most cases there aren't any clues.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><ul style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><li><i>Carusburc</i> > <i>Caris bourc</i> > <i>Chiérebourg</i> > <span style="font-style: italic;">Cherbourg</span> = <span style="font-style: italic;">
Tchidbouo</span> ([<span class="API">tʃidbwu:</span>] <- /čirbur/) (Latin <i>Coesaris burgus</i>, <i>Carusburgus</i>) < <span style="font-style: italic;">Kjarsborg</span> "marsh fortification"</li><li><span style="font-style: italic;">
Quettehou</span> = <span style="font-style: italic;">Tchettehou</span> (/čethu/) < <span style="font-style: italic;">Ketilholm </span>"hill of (Chief) Ketil"</li><li><span style="font-style: italic;">Bricquebec
</span>= <span style="font-style: italic;">Briquebé (/brikbe/) </span>< *<span style="font-style: italic;">Brekbekk </span>"slope brook"</li><li>Brecqhou = Brecqhou (Brechou) (/brekhu/) < *<span style="font-style: italic;">
Brekholm </span>"slope hill/island/"<br></li></ul><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Reinhard/Ron</span><br><br>