<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 08 June 2007 - Volume 07</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">=========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_luc.hellinckx@gmail.com" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Luc Hellinckx </span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg">
<<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Etymology"</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Beste Marcel,<br><br>You wrote:<br><br>> "het/de deken"<br>> "het/de flat" (flatgebouw)<br>> "het/de deksel"
<br>> "het/de matras"<br>><br>> Enzovoorts. Hoe zouden die woorden in het Zuid-Nederlands worden<br>> aangemerkt?<br><br>Bij ons (West-Brabant) wordt dat resp.:<br><br>* de sözze (woord deken bestaat niet als bedbedekking...wel bestaat "den
<br>dèèken", maar dat is de naam voor een religieuze deken, "dean" (E)).<br>Tussen haakjes: sözze < serge (Frans/Engels) < serica (Latijn) ~ Seres<br>(oude Latijnse en Griekse naam voor Xinjiang in Noord-West China).
<br>"Serge" gaf ook aanleiding tot denim, via "serge de Nîmes"<br>* flat bestaat traditioneel evenmin...sommigen zullen "de flat" zeggen (V)<br>* 't deksel (onzijdig dus)<br>* de matras (V)
<br><br>Vriendelijke groeten,<br></div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="sg"><br>Luc Hellinckx<br><br>----------<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_roepstem@hotmail.com" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Marcel Bas</span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg"> <<a href="mailto:roepstem@hotmail.com">roepstem@hotmail.com</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2007.06.09 (06) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Hello John and Reinhard,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
John remarked: </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
"You wrote that t>d is unusual, but apart from /Teut/, just in /ta-/
there is :tag,tanz,tau,taub,tauch and taube. Tier:deer is consistent
with that."</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
And Reinhard said that it is a feature that some people want to call a
feature of 'Southern German'. Does this equal the 'Hochdeutsch'
languages? </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Southern it is: if you go further south into, Carinthia and
Switzerland, you'll notice devoicing of d and b to t and p. Especially
in the anlaut. Cf. 'schwyzertüütsch' (Schweizerdeutsch) and 'podn'
(baden) in Carinthia. </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
But even further up north I have heard this. An acquaintance of mine
comes from a Bavarian 'Sprachinsel' in former Sudetenland (in Bohemia,
Czechia) and she also says 'p' and 't' where one would expect 'b' and
'd'.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
I have read some ancient High German, and you see that there were a lot
more 't''s where you would expect 'd''s, whereas in present High
German, these words start with a 'd'. How is that possible? Was there a
later influence of Low German? Where was this written High German
spoken? Possibly very much to the south.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Now High German to me seems a bit uncompleted when it comes to the devoicing of 'd'. </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
We have Dutch vs. German:</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
dis - Tisch</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
dol -toll</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
dag - Tag</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
drinken - trinken</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
But:</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
de - die</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
deze - diese</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
dinsdag - Dienstag</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
dekken - decken</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
My idea on this is that what we now consider High German is in fact a
transitional dialect. After all, in the South this devoicing has
completed. But it could also be a dialect that is a mix of northern and
southern characteristics. Because if we look at Althochdeutsch (ancient
High German) this process seems more advanced. Could somebody say more
about this?</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Best regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Marcel.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Subject: Etymology</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Hi, Marcel!</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">> And Reinhard said that it is a feature that some people want to call a
feature of 'Southern German'. Does this equal the 'Hochdeutsch'
languages? </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">I believe I said that some would call the German group (German proper, Alemannic, Yiddish, etc.) "Southern German</span><span style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: underline; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">ic</span></span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">" rather that considering it part of Western Germanic (which would then be the Lowlands languages, by and large).</span>
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">> Now High German to me seems a bit uncompleted when it comes to the devoicing of 'd'.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Not really. You're missing something in the German shifts here.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 102); font-weight: bold; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">*d > t</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
dis - Tisch (E. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">d</span>isk = table)<br>
dol - toll (E. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">d</span>ull)<br>
dag - Tag (E. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">d</span>ay)<br>
drinken - trinken (E. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">d</span>rink)<br>door - Tür (E. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">d</span>oor)<br>droom - Traum (E. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">d</span>
ream)<br></div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-weight: bold; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 102); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">*th > d</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
de - die (E. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">th</span>e)<br>
deze - diese (E. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">th</span>ese)<br>
dinsdag - Dienstag (after the god <span style="text-decoration: underline;">Th</span>ingsus)<br>
dekken - decken (E. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">th</span>atch)<br>door - durch (E. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">th</span>rough)<br>denken - denken (E. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">
th</span>ink)<br>dik - dick (E. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">th</span>ick)<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Is it clearer now?</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Things become obscured when you look from the vantage point of one language in thich the same sound is derived from one than one original sound, as in the case of
</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Low Franconian</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> and </span><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Low Saxon</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">:</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 102); font-weight: bold; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
*d > t</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">dis </span>- <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">disch</span> (E. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">d</span>isk = table)
<br><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
dol</span> - <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">dol ~ dul</span> (E. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">d</span>ull)<br><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
dag</span> - <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">dag</span> (E. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">d</span>ay)<br><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
drinken</span> - <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">drinken</span> (E. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">d</span>rink)<br><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
door </span>- <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">doer</span> (E. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">d</span>oor)<br><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
droom</span> - <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">droum</span> (E. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">d</span>ream)<br></div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-weight: bold; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 102); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">*th > d</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
de</span> - <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">de ~ dey</span> (E. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">th</span>e)<br><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
deze</span> - <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">disse</span> (E. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">th</span>ese)<br><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
dinsdag</span> - <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">Dingsdag</span> (after the god <span style="text-decoration: underline;">Th</span>ingsus)<br><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
dekken</span> - <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">dekken </span>(E. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">th</span>atch)<br><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">door </span>- <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">doer(ch)
</span> (E. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">th</span>rough)<br><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
denken</span> - <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">denken ~ dinken</span> (E. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">th</span>ink)<br></div>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
dik</span> - <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">dik</span> (E. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">th</span>ick)<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Regards,
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">