<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 08 July 2007 - Volume 03<br><br>=========================================================================<br><br>From: <span id="_user_jonny.meibohm@arcor.de" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">jonny
</span><span style="font-weight: normal;" class="lg"> <<a href="mailto:jonny.meibohm@arcor.de">jonny.meibohm@arcor.de</a>></span><br>Subject: LL-L 'Etymology'<br><br><div><span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode">
Beste
Lowlanners, Nedersaksen, Neddersassen un Ron,</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode">just a good
10 minutes ago I learned a new word out of the store of our
regional Low Saxon: <font color="#0000ff"><em>'winsch'</em>.</font> I heard it as
an adverb in combination with <em>'kieken'</em> <em>('sey keyk all heyl
winsch'),</em> and the meaning is something like G: 'irre', 'wahnsinnig',
'verwirrt', in LS close to 'unklouk', E: 'mad', 'insane'.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode">Could it be
a special variety of LS 'füünsch', denoting something similar? If yes- where is
'füünsch' deriving from? Of French origin perhaps?</font></span></div>
<div> </div>
<div align="left"><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode">Allerbest!</font></div>
<div align="left"> </div>
<div align="left"><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode">Jonny Meibohm<br><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">---------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
</font><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_marless@gmx.de" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">"M.-L. Lessing" <<a href="mailto:marless@gmx.de">
marless@gmx.de</a>></span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg"></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Etymology"
2007.07.08 (01) [E/LS]</span><br>
<br>
<div><div id="mb_1">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font face="Times New Roman">Leve Jonny,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman">Klintworth, Klindworth, ja, dat kenn ik ok!
(Wi wüllt hier keen Produktnaams seggen, nich? ;-)) Dat is en gode Henwies. En
Klintwort kunn denn je meist en steile Wurt, Worth, Warft ween,
nich?</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman">Du schriffst:</font></div><span class="q">
<div>
<div><span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode">Hier stoyrt mii dat Wourd
<em><strong>'nerrn'.</strong></em> Ick kenn 't man blouts as G:<strong>
<em>'unte<u>r</u>',</em></strong> un doar seggt DWDS tou:</font></span></div>
<div align="left"><span>[<font color="#ff0000">unter</font><em>]</em></span><em>mit
Dat.</em>; <i>bezeichnet im Verhältnis zu einem Bezugspunkt eine vertikal
tiefere Lage/ im</i> (<i>senkrechten</i>) <i>Abstand unterhalb von etw.
gelegen</i>:</div>
<div align="left"><span><font color="#ff0000">[unter</font><em>]</em></span><em>mit
Akk.</em>; <i>bezeichnet die Richtung auf eine im Verhältnis zu einem
Bezugspunkt tiefer gelegene Stelle/ im</i> (<i>senkrechten</i>) <i>Abstand zu
etw. Darüberliegendem</i>:</div>
<div align="left"> </div>
<div align="left"><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span>Also: <em>'ick stell de
Foyt <strong>nerrn </strong>Disch'</em> magst' woll driist seggen,
man nich' <em>'hey wüss oppletz' ne meyhr, woneem boaben un <strong><font color="#ff0000">nerrn </font></strong>weyr'</em>, denn is <em>''boaben un'<strong>
ünnen'</strong></em> beter (ouk, wenn 't meyhr no Houghdüütsch
uut-sücht ;-)).</span></font></div>
</div>
<div> </div></span>
<div><font face="Times New Roman">Dat finn ik intressant. Ik heff dat jüst so in
de Wies lehrt, as de nds. Wiki dat ok brukt. Man dat kann ja verkehrt ween.
Rasterhaftig süht dat in min Kopp so ut:</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman">HD PD</font></div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman">unten nerrn</font></div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman">unter ünner</font></div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman">hinunter
(hen)dal</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman">Wenn also wat "unten liegt", denn "liggt dat
nerrn". Do ik wat "unter den Tisch", denn do ik dat "ünner den Disch". In Din
Bispillsätz wöör ik dat jüstemang annersrüm maken! Is dat nu verkehrt? Ik
söch na Bispelen. Hier in de Nehgde gifft't en Dörp <em>Negernbötel</em>. Dat
liggt ok so'n beten in en sieden, natten Grund. Kunn dat "Unteres Büttel" heten?
Orr is <em>Negern-</em> hier ehrder "Neuen-"? Is dat villicht regionaal
ünnerscheedlich? </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman">Wiss is: Wenn een in HD seggt "Ich drücke es
nieder" orr "Es fällt nieder", denn is dat in PD <em>hendal</em>. Orr doch
nich?</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman">Ik bün nieschierig op Din Menen.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman">Hartlich!</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman">Marlou<br><br><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></font><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
From: </span><span id="_user_marless@gmx.de" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">"M.-L. Lessing" <<a href="mailto:marless@gmx.de">marless@gmx.de</a>></span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.08 (01) [E/LS]</span><br><br><div><font face="Times New Roman">
<div style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Dear Paul and Heather,</font></div><span class="q">
<div style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">you wrote:</font></div>
<div style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">In Northern England,
in limestone country, the limestone disolves out along joints creating a blocky
terrain with upstanding blocks separated by narrow gullies, a bit like egg boxes
or choclate blocks. The blocks are anything from a half a metre to several
metres. The upstanding blocks are called "clints" and the gullies between
are called "grikes".</div>
<div style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Paul Finlow-Bates</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
</span><span class="q"><div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">The Oxford Dictionary of English
Place Names has</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Clint from
Yorkshire O Swedish klinter Danish klint
ONorse klettr 'a hill'</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">also possibly Clinch
Clench The place is near a hill and very likely Clinch is really the name of the
hill related to English clench/clunch 'a lump' Possibly a related element is
found in 'Clinca ledge 941 AD on Clincan ledge 934 AD</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Hope this helps</div>
<div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Heather</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></div></span></font></div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman">Well, it is like the famous Domino day:
touching one word makes the next one fall, and the next... a series of
enlightenment! If the chain from Clint to clench/clinch to Clinca holds, then we
are in Hamburg again, among the famous Klinker buildings, made from a special
hard brick, which may have been a "lump", a "clunch" in its beginning! And these
buildings are often bold and high, quasi artificial <em>Klints</em> :-) But
wait, german Wikipedia tells me:</font></div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman">
<p><b>"Klinker</b> sind <a title="Ziegel" href="http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziegel" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">Ziegelsteine</a>, die unter so hohen
Temperaturen gebrannt sind, dass durch den beginnenden <a title="Sintern" href="http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintern" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">Sinterprozess</a> die Poren des
Brenngutes geschlossen werden. Klinker nehmen kaum Wasser auf und sind sehr
widerstandsfähig. Der Name rührt daher, dass sie beim Zerschlagen einen hellen
Klang haben."</p></font></div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman">The last sentence translates: "The origin of
the name ("Klinker") is the bright sound they give when broken." Well, if they
knew...! They are mistaken then, aren't they? Orr <em>does</em> "Klinker" come
from "klingen" (german "to sound")? Who can tell us? And how many Domino stones
are still to fall? Orr will we try brick stones instead? :-)</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman">Thanks & Greetings,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman">Marlou<br><br><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></font><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
From: </span><span id="_user_wkv@home.nl" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">wim <<a href="mailto:wkv@home.nl">wkv@home.nl</a>></span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.08 (01) [E/LS]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><p><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">From Wim <a href="mailto:wkv@home.nl" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
wkv@home.nl</a>
Netherands Zwolle</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="EN-GB">Hi</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="EN-GB">The word Klinge, that s a
knife edge in German, might that be connected too? Klinge is also an old word
for hill in Dutch.</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="EN-GB">Just a thought , and there
is of cause klip and klif. ( Dutch).</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">Wim</span></font></p></div><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></span><span id="_user_wkv@home.nl" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
</span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg"></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Subject: Etymology</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></div></div>
</div></div><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Marlou,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
The noun</span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-style: italic;"> </span>Klinker</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> is a Dutch loan (</span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
klinkert</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">, </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">klinker</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">) for a type of brick whose firing at particularly high heat was imported from the Netherlands. It is based on the Dutch verb
</span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">klink-</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> (</span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">klinken</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
) 'to sound' (German </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">kling-</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">, Eastern Central German <span style="font-style: italic;">klink-
</span>), probably because these types of hard bricks produce a ringing sound when hit. My feeling is that this has nothing to do with </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Klint</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
. However, Wim seems to be on the right track with German <span style="font-style: italic;">Klinge</span> '(kife's/sword's) blade', as it has been recognized as related to <span style="font-style: italic;">
kling-</span>, as has been <span style="font-style: italic;">Klinke</span> 'door handle', 'catch'. So <span style="font-style: italic;">Klingen</span> and <span style="font-style: italic;">Klinke</span> are really cognate nouns derived from different language varieties.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">As for the theory that </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Klint</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> may be a Jutish loan in Low Saxon, sure, you could look at its geographical distribution in place names and dialects in comparison with the Jutish cattle treks. However, I'm not sure how reliable that would be, as loanwords, once absorbed and nativized, have a way of being passed on to other language varieties, and not necessarily in the same pattern as the historical event on which you focus.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Oh, and it is all right to mention product names here as long as that doesn't amount to advertising.
<br><br>Jonny, I haven't come across <span style="font-style: italic;">winsch</span> before. I wonder if it is derived from Old Saxon <span style="font-style: italic;">win</span> 'trouble', 'strive', 'fight', alternatively from
<span style="font-style: italic;">wend-</span> (<span style="font-style: italic;">wendian</span>) 'to turn (around)', 'to spin', related to <span style="font-style: italic;">wendi</span> 'boundary', 'border' (at which you turn around; cf. German
<span style="font-style: italic;">Wenden</span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">Wende</span>).</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br>