<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 10 July 2007 - Volume 04</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">=========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_lgranberg@usa.com" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Larry Granberg <<a href="mailto:lgranberg@usa.com">lgranberg@usa.com
</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "History" 2007.07.10 (01) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">ooooops, my bad</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">But any thoughts on the other protions of my post?</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Take care, </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Larry</div><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">From: R. F. Hahn <
</span><a style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">></span><br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">Subject: History</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">Hi, Larry, and thanks!</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">That museum you mentioned appears to be the same one I announced at the Travel site: </span><br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">
<a style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);" href="http://lowlands-l.net/travels/ballin-stadt.php" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">lowlands-l.net/travels/ballin-stadt.php</a><br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">Cheers!</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">Reinhard/Ron</span><br></div><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <</span>
<a style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">></span>
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Subject: History</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">I didn't see it as a "bad," Larry. In fact, I'm grateful for the tip, because it allows me to update my blurb.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">As for the Chamavi, I don't have much of an opinion, in large part because so little is known about the subject that it's everyone's guess.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">As far as we know, mostly from Greek sources, the Chamavi (< </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Καμάυοι</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">) were located next to the Cherusci and the Bructeri. This points to the right side of the Lower Rhine in what is now North Rhine-Westphalia. This was Saxon-Frankish borderland, and it's hard to tell which tribe was Saxon and which tribe was Frankish. Of the Bructeri we know that they came to be absorbed into the greater Frankish nation, but this doesn't tell us if they were Saxon or Frankish to start with. Of the Chamavi we know from medieval sources:
</span><i style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Hamavi qui et Franci</i><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> ... ("Chamavi who are also (known as) Franks ..."). Was that inherently so or post-Francicization?
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">The person you told us about may have been led to assume that Hamburg was once a Chamavi place because of the
</span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Ham-</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> part in the name. See e.g., Wikipedia:</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">The best etymology derives Ham- from common Germanic *haimaz, "home", from Indo-European *tkei-, "settle", from which the High German place-name suffix, -heim. The ham- form, "settlement", seems to have come from North Sea Germanic, as we acquired it through Dutch and French. The -avi, an adjectival ending, later resulted in -au in other place names, but was dropped in this one. Chamavi in this derivation would mean "men of the settlements" or "settlers." When and in what sense they were so is lost in prehistory.
</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 102);"></span><br></div><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">The apparent occurrence of </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
*haim-</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> in both "</span><span style="text-decoration: underline; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Cham<span style="font-style: italic; text-decoration: underline;"></span>
a</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">vi" and (</span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Hamma</span>burg</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
>) "</span><span style="text-decoration: underline; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Ham</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">burg" ought not necessarily lead us to the conclusion that there is a direct link, that Hamburg began as a Chamavi settlement.
</span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">*Haim-</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> just denoted something like 'home', 'own place', 'settlement'.</span>
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">However, there is a school of thought that does subscribe to it, as also summarized by Wikipedia:
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">These passages in Tacitus raise the question, if Hamaland is the former territory of the Bructeri, where were the Chamavi before then? One answer is that they occupied the coastal plain to the north (Germans moved almost invariably from north to south). Many settlements are named Hamm, including possibly a modern city, Hamburg. The name may have come from the Germanic equivalent of Chamavi.
</span><br></div><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">That's all I can say about that.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">