<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 19 July 2007 - Volume 01</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">=========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_douglas@nb.net" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">"Douglas G. Wilson" <<a href="mailto:douglas@nb.net">douglas@nb.net
</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.18 (02) [E/German]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">> > Ron used the word 'maskee' as in 'Maskee you likie' the other day ....</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">But I suppose the default hypothesis must be that "maskee" is from</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Portuguese (or Spanish) "mas que"?
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">At least the hypothesis seems superficially plausible ... and</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">venerable ... e.g.:</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><a style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.meirapenna.org/publicacoes/conf/2005/tres_visitas_a_xanghai.htm" target="_blank">
http://www.meirapenna.org/publicacoes/conf/2005/tres_visitas_a_xanghai.htm</a><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><a style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.fask.uni-mainz.de/inst/iaa/anglophonie/second/black.htm" target="_blank">
http://www.fask.uni-mainz.de/inst/iaa/anglophonie/second/black.htm</a><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><a style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.1:1:510.hobson" target="_blank">
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.1:1:510.hobson</a><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><a style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://books.google.com/books?id=bpsAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA144&dq=maskee+%22mas+que%22" target="_blank">
http://books.google.com/books?id=bpsAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA144&dq=maskee+%22mas+que%22</a><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><a style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://books.google.com/books?id=3qk-p5hKuccC&pg=PA495&ots=PtWZrb0MJA&dq=maskee+%22mas+que%22&sig=XRhnFRiUNvgXo342BGF_vY1_d30" target="_blank">
http://books.google.com/books?id=3qk-p5hKuccC&pg=PA495&ots=PtWZrb0MJA&dq=maskee+%22mas+que%22&sig=XRhnFRiUNvgXo342BGF_vY1_d30</a><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">-- Doug Wilson</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="sg"><br><br>----------<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_kevin.caldwell1963@verizon.net" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Kevin Caldwell <<a href="mailto:kevin.caldwell1963@verizon.net">kevin.caldwell1963@verizon.net</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Etymology"
2007.07.18 (02) [E/German]</span><br><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="4"><span style="font-size: 13pt;">English does have the word "byword" – not used much in modern English,
but it is found in the King James Bible. It is defined as:</span></font></p>
<p><b><font face="Times New Roman" size="4"><span style="font-size: 13pt; font-weight: bold;">1</span></font></b><font size="4"><span style="font-size: 13pt;"> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">:</span></b> a
proverbial saying <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">: <a href="http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/proverb" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"><font size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
PROVERB</span></font></a></span></b><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">2 a</span></b> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">:</span></b> one that personifies a type <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">b</span></b> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">:</span>
</b> one that is
noteworthy or notorious<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">3</span></b> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">: <a href="http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/epithet" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"><font size="2">
<span style="font-size: 10pt;">EPITHET</span></font></a></span></b><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">4</span></b> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">:</span></b> a frequently used word or phrase</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="4"><span style="font-size: 13pt;">As used in the KJV, it seems to mean something like a person or place
cited as an example or warning for others ("Don't forget what happened to…"). So
in the sentence, "They went the way of the dodo bird," the dodo bird is a
byword. Is that anything like "Beispiel"?</span></font></p><span class="sg">
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="4"><span style="font-size: 13pt;">Kevin Caldwell</span></font><font face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">
</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;"><br></span></font></p></span><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
From: </span><font style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" color="#00681c"><span>Luc Hellinckx</span></font><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> <<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"</span></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
In this light, it would be interesting to track how "for example" and</span></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
cognates have spread across Northern Europe,
versus "zum Beispiel" (and </span></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
similar constructions). This is wat Kluge writes about "Beispiel":</span></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">
</span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
*Beispiel* Sn std. (12. Jh., Form 15. Jh.), mhd. bīspel, andfrk. bīspil</span></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
"Gleichnis, Redensart". Ebenso ae. bispell, eigentlich "das dazu
</span></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Erzählte", zusammengesetzt aus bei und g. *spella- n. "überlieferte</span></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Geschichte, Mythos" in gt. spill, anord. spjall (meist Pl.), ae. spell,</span></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
as. spel, ahd. spel, das sich bei gleicher Lautform (*spel-) nur mit </span></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
arm. ara-spel "Sage, Sprichwort" vergleicht; weiter vielleicht mit s</span></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
mobile zu den unter befehlen aufgeführten Verwandten von l. appellāre.</span></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Der Vokalismus ist seit spätmittelhochdeutscher Zeit sekundär an Spiel </span></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
angeglichen worden (vgl. Kirchspiel).</span></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Die heutige Bedeutung "Beispiel, Muster, Vorbild" beruht auf einer</span></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Lehnbedeutung von l. exemplum, das u.a. "Gleichnis" und
"Vorbild,</span></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Muster" bedeutet. </span></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">
</span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
I wonder who actually introduced this "Lehnbedeutung", given the fact</span></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
that German and Dutch both now have it in their standard varieties ("zum</span></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Beispiel" and "bij-voorbeeld"), but English and Southern Dutch
don't </span></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
("bijvoorbeeld" is a "schoolwoord", and traditional dialect
still has</span></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
"per exempel", even though it becomes outdated now). I have this
feeling</span></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
that the "example"-set is older and neutral whereas </span></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
"Beispiel-bijvoorbeeld" may have had religious overtones. Could it be
a</span></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
(protestant) church word? Again, this is just a wild guess.</span></span></font></div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="sg">
</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="q">
</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_ezinsser@icon.co.za" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Maria Elsie Zinsser</span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg"> <<a href="mailto:ezinsser@icon.co.za">ezinsser@icon.co.za</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.18 (03) [E]</span>
<p style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Hi all,<br><br>Ron, I think the Dutch East India Company carried
misschien to the Indonesian archipelago and seamen carried it north to
the Chinese and adjacent coasts where it became
maskie. Douglas' suggestion of the mas que reinforcing the word can
also not be ignored. <br><br>But you have usurped my initial
question, whether other Lowlands languages also use
similar interjections of the Orange River types; allemaskie,
allemintig, or allemapstieks. <br><br>Regards,<br><span class="sg">Elsie Zinsser <br></span></p><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Paul Finlow-Bates <<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">
wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg"></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.18 (01) [E]</span>
<p style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">In Tok Pisin "maski" means "forget about it" as in "maski, emi
samting nating". "Forget it, it doesn't matter". I can't think of a
connection to the Dutch, or a likely semantic shift though.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Paul</p><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
From: </span><span id="_user_wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Paul Finlow-Bates <<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span>
<span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg"></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.18 (02) [E/German]</span>
<p style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: Luc Hellinckx<span style="font-weight: normal;"> <<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span><br>Subject: LL-L "Etymology"<br>....I wonder who actually introduced this "Lehnbedeutung", given the fact<br></p><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 153); margin-left: 40px;">
that German and Dutch both now have it in their standard varieties ("zum<br>Beispiel" and "bij-voorbeeld"), but English and Southern Dutch don't <br><br>Kind greetings,<br></div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<div style="direction: ltr;"><div style="margin-left: 40px;"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Luc Hellinckx</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"></div><br><br>That
got me thinking about what the "native" (i.e. Germanic) English word
for "example" would be, and I can't think of one. Most of our
Latin/French loanwords have a Germanic counterpart, but I'm stuck for
one there.</div><span class="sg">
<div style="direction: ltr;"> </div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Paul Finlow-Bates</div></span></span><br>