<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 20 July 2007 - Volume 01</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">=========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_ezinsser@icon.co.za" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Maria Elsie Zinsser</span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg">
<<a href="mailto:ezinsser@icon.co.za">ezinsser@icon.co.za</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.19 (04) [E]</span>
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Hi all,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Thanks, Mark, but you've not been following the whole story. </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">I
did say that the mentioned interjections were possibly euphemisms. [The
"alle" "part possibly comes from 'almagtig', and is used
euphemistically"] </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">I bet you did not know that the 'alle'-prefix possibly derives from our original Afrikaans speakers, the Cape Muslim.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">My
dad, who comes from the Bushmanland, still uses "allematjiesfontein!"
after 60 years in the city, and was very surprised when I mentioned to
him that these forms were originally used as euphemisms.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Other
euphemisms that he is aware of are: Kot (God), maaifoelie (mother
f***), moervaring (mother f***), blikslater (bliksem), hardekwas
(hardegat), aapstert (a***hole), etc. etc. etc.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Goeie môre!</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Elsie Zinsser</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<p style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
</p><font style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" size="2">From: Mark Dreyer <</font><a style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" href="mailto:mrdreyer@lantic.net" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
<font size="2">mrdreyer@lantic.net </font></a><font style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" size="2">><br>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.19 (01) [E/German]<br>Dear Elsie, Ron, All:<br>Subject: LL-L "Etymology"
<br>Elsie,
you mention 'allemaskie', 'allemintig' & 'allemapstieks' as
interjections without bearing much on their actual nature. People, she
is referring to what the English used to indulge in as 'minced oaths'
as from people unwilling to take the Lord's name in vain ('Allemagtig'
- 'Almighty').<br><br>----------<br><br></font><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_jonny.meibohm@arcor.de" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">jonny
</span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg"> <<a href="mailto:jonny.meibohm@arcor.de">jonny.meibohm@arcor.de</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.19 (04) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" id="mb_1">
<div>
<div><span>Beste
Mark,</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>Du
schreyvst:</span></div><span class="q">
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font color="#008080">> Did this
practice hold sway in other Lowlands Language circles,</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div></span>
<div><span>Supplementary to Ron's answer: we even say
<em>'hotzverdoori'</em>, which is in G: 'gottverdammt', E: 'goddamned'. Look at
the shifting from _<em>g_</em> to <em>_h_!</em></span></div>
<div> </div>
<div align="left">Allerbest!</div>
<div align="left"> </div>
<div align="left">Jonny
Meibohm<br><br>---------<br><br>From: <span id="_user_sandy@scotstext.org" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Sandy Fleming</span><span style="font-weight: normal;" class="lg"> <<a href="mailto:sandy@scotstext.org">sandy@scotstext.org
</a>></span><span style="font-weight: normal;" class="lg"></span><span style="font-weight: normal;" class="lg"></span><br>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.19 (02) [E]<br>
<br>> From: "<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk">heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk</a>"<br>> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.19 (01) [E/German]
<br><br>> Brilliant, Kevin. As you say not a word much in use nowadays. So much<br>> so I cannot get straight in my mind which of the following would be<br>> used. Help, anyone?<br>><br>> "He was a byword of depravity"
<br>><br>> "He was a byword for depravity"<br>><br>> "He was the byword in depravity"<br><br>Although of course the choice of preposition in any phrase tends to vary<br>in some dialects of any language, I would say the word "byword" is part
<br>of my active vocabulary and the pronoun I'd use with it is "for", or in<br>some contexts, "in".<br><br>However, none of the sentences you suggested make sense. A person can't<br>be a word of any kind! I think to make sense you'd have to say:
<br><br>"His name was a byword in depravity."<br><br>This means that in depraved circles his name was a byword (ie, anybody<br>moving in depraved company would recognise it).<br><br>Or you could say (and it's an even bigger insult):
<br><br>"His name is a byword for depravity."<br><br>This is like saying people actually mention his name to suggest the idea<br>that something or someone else is depraved, by comparing them to him in<br>some way.
<br><br>Kevin's sentence, "The dodo is a byword." makes sense, but leaves<br>something open to interpretation by the hearers, ie it's a byword for<br>what? Most people would be able to mentally complete the sentence:
<br><br>"The dodo is a byword for obsolescence."<br><br>meaning that you can refer to something as a dodo and your hearers<br>should recognise that you mean it's obsolete.<br><br>My interpretation of the word is the same as that of words like
<br>"by-name", "by-laws", and "by-roads". It means that the thing may not be<br>the usual way to refer to something, it may not be an actual part of the<br>legal system, or it may not be the usual road to take, but it's a usage
<br>accepted by a some sort of consensus.<br><span class="sg"><br>Sandy Fleming<br><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://scotstext.org/" target="_blank">http://scotstext.org/</a><br><br>----------
<br><br></span>From: <span id="_user_sandy@scotstext.org" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Sandy Fleming</span><span style="font-weight: normal;" class="lg"> <<a href="mailto:sandy@scotstext.org">sandy@scotstext.org</a>
></span> <span style="font-weight: normal;" class="lg"></span><span style="font-weight: normal;" class="lg"></span><span style="font-weight: normal;" class="lg"></span><br>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.14 (02) [E]<br>
<br><div style="direction: ltr;">> From: R. F. Hahn <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>> Subject: Etymology<br>><br>> Sandy et al.,
<br>><br>> This is a follow-up on our discussion about place names with "ham,"<br>> and it is a crossover from the "History" thread.<br>><br>> Turns out that this "ham" is etymologically related to English (hemm
<br>> >) "hem" with the meaning 'border' (> 'border of a garment'). It is<br>> further related to the following:<br>> * German hemm- (hemmen) 'to stop', 'to hinder', 'to curb', 'to
<br>> check', 'to restrain', southern dialects 'to enclose<br>> lifestock'<br>> * Old English hemman 'to hinder', 'to curb', 'to check', 'to<br>
> restrain', 'to stop (up)', 'to shut'<br>> * Old Norse hemja 'to restrain', 'to curb', 'to check', 'to<br>> force'; hemill 'hobbling device'
<br>> * Old Frisian ham, hamm, hem, him 'enclosed pasture',<br>> 'fighting/battle arena'<br>> * North Frisian heam 'hem', 'edge', 'border'<br>> * Old Saxon ham 'meadow', 'nook', 'corner', 'bay' (< *'enclosed
<br>> pasture')<br>> * Low Saxon Hamm 'enclosed land', Rhenish 'meadow' (> Northern<br>> German)<br>> * Western Flemish: ham 'meadow'<br>> * Indo-European *kem- 'to enclose with wickerwork (> fence)'
<br>> * Greek κημόσ kēmós 'woven urn lid', 'fish trap', 'muzzle'<br><br>As you enquired earlier, yes, this is Somerset, and is part of Wessex,<br>the region of the West Saxons. It's famed for Alfred the Great who I
<br>believe had his capital at Shaftesbury. My particular village and a few<br>other local villages use the unusual form "uch" (which I've heard them<br>pronounce "ootch", /utS/) for "I", I don't know whether that would be
<br>related to the Dutch "ik" and suchlike? This is of course only used when<br>speaking the local West Country dialect.<br><br>The Old Saxon definition you gave is particularly interesting. Ham Hill<br>is a long, gradually increasing ridge and looking down on the lower
<br>parts from the quarry at the top you can indeed see a sharp bend in the<br>ridge creating a large sheltered nook. on the slopes of this nook you<br>can see a series of step formations which were man-made farming strips
<br>built in the Middle Ages.<br><br>There was once a large Iron Age fort at the top.<br></div><span class="sg"><br>Sandy Fleming<br><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://scotstext.org/" target="_blank">
http://scotstext.org/</a><br><br>----------<br><br></span>From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><span id="_user_mrdreyer@lantic.net" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">
</span><br>Subject: Etymology<br><br>Thanks, Sandy.<br><br><span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">> * Old Saxon ham 'meadow', 'nook', 'corner', 'bay' (< *'enclosed</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">> pasture')</span><br><br>I wonder if I should have said "cove" rather than "bay."<br><br><div style="margin-left: 40px;"><span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">
My particular village and a few</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">other local villages use the unusual form "uch" (which I've heard them</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">pronounce "ootch", /utS/) for "I", I don't know whether that would be</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">related to the Dutch "ik" and suchlike?
</span><br></div><br>I'm pretty sure it is, but more specifically to Low Saxon <span style="font-style: italic;">ik</span> (in some dialects, as in Dutch and Berlin German, emphatic <span style="font-style: italic;">ikke
</span>).<br><br>Old Saxon: <span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">ik<br></span></span>Old English: <span style="font-style: italic;">ic</span> (academically written <i>iċ</i>) is pronounced [ItS] (as in "itch").
<br><br>Saxon dialects have more or less strong propensities toward rounding short vowels, which makes a development from <i>iċ </i>to <i><span style="font-style: italic;">u</span>ċ</i> not all that surprising to me.<br>
<br>Yesterday I wrote:<br><br><div style="margin-left: 40px;"><span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">Not "copped oaths," "rolled oaths" or "oathmeal"?
</span><br></div><br>That was supposed to be "chopped oaths" of course. I hate it when I barely manage to be funny and then screw it up with a typo! Ah, well, it's been a long, hard and stressful week ...
<br><br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br><br></div></div>
</div>