<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 21 July 2007 - Volume 01</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">=========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
From: </span><span id="_user_jonny.meibohm@arcor.de" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">jonny</span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg"> <<a href="mailto:jonny.meibohm@arcor.de">
jonny.meibohm@arcor.de</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Etymoly" 2007.07.20 (08) [E]</span><br><br><div><span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode">
Beste
Luc,</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode">Du
schreyvst:</font></span></div><span class="q">
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><font color="#008080"><span>> </span>On a
sidenote, this "spell" has nothing to do with Dutch "spel" or<br><span>> </span>German "Spiel", game. "Spiel" (in
Bei-spiel) was a case of <br><span>>
</span>"hineininterpretierung". It is however the same word as "spell", like
in<br><span>> </span>"under a spell", and even "to
spell words".<br></font></div></span>
<div><span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode">Very
interesting! I didn't know the English noun 'spell' before, but I was aware
about the fact that there must have been another, a different root than
just D: 'spel', G: 'Spiel', LS: 'Speel', E: 'game', as you might see in our
former, but insatisfactorily ending discussion here: <a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0610B&L=lowlands-l&P=R67" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"><font face="Times New Roman">
Item #13981 (8 Oct 2006 12:07) - LL-L 'Etymology'
2006.10.08 (02) [D/E]</font><br></a></font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode">We still
find it in e.g. LS: <em>'Kar(k)spill'</em>, in German misleadingly 'Kirchspiel',
E: 'parish', which we perhaps could interprete as 'a place under the benediction
and trust of the (local) church'.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode">BTW: my
'friend' Sass recommends to write 'Bi_spil[l]_' (G: 'Beispiel') in LS, and
this time I think his suggestion could be better than my 'Bii_speel_',
as it might already have been watered by Standard German in my regiolect. In OHG
we have two different roots: <em>'spellon'</em> - 'to tell' and
<em>'spilon'</em> - 'to play' (though they probably are
related).</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode">But wait-
<strong><em>Harper</em></strong> here <a href="http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=spell&searchmode=none" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=spell&searchmode=none
</a> even
refers to an alternative meaning:</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><u>quote:</u> </font></span></div>
<div><span>
<dt><a href="http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=spell" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"><strong><font color="#800020" face="Courier">spell (v.2)</font></strong></a><font face="Courier">
</font></dt></span></div>
<div><font face="Courier">"work in place of (another)," O.E. <span><em>spelian</em></span> "to take the place of," related to <span><em>gespelia</em></span> "substitute," of uncertain origin.
Perhaps related to <span><em>spilian</em></span> "to play" (see
</font><a href="http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=spiel" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"><strong><em><font color="#800020" face="Courier">spiel</font></em></strong></a><font face="Courier">
).</font></div>
<div><span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><u>unquote</u></font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode">Of course- "Ich
<em>spiele</em> die Rolle des Hamlet", "Ich <em>spiele</em> den starken Mann"
are common idioms in German, meaning 'to act as a
substitute'.</font></span></font></div>
<div><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span><span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode">But:<em> 'gespelia'</em> presumably is the same as G:
'Gespiel_e_/_in_', which could be interpreted both as 'substitute' (for the
legal wife) and 'wife (just) to <em><strong>play</strong></em> with'. (Where is
the great difference...;-)?)</font></span></span></font></div>
<div><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span><span></span></span></font> </div>
<div><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span>Last but not least:</span></font></div>
<div><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span><u>quote (<font size="2">Harper once
more)</font></u>:</span></font></div>
<div>
<dd><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><font face="Courier">The noun
meaning "indefinite period of time" first recorded 1706.</font>
</font></dd></div>
<div><span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><u>unquote</u></font></span></div>
<div> </div>
<div><span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode">Wicked stuff to confuse even professional linguists
as proven in (at this time unhelpful) 'Herkunfts-Woerterbuch' (Duden)!
</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font color="#000080" face="Lucida Sans Unicode">'Is dat nu al'ns<em> Speelkroom</em> edders <em>Spellkroom</em>
:-(?'</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div align="left"><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode">Allerbest!</font></div>
<div align="left"> </div>
<font face="Lucida Sans Unicode">Jonny
Meibohm<br><br><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------<br><br></span></font><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>>
</span><span id="_user_mrdreyer@lantic.net" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148); font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg"></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: Etymology<br><br>Jonny, whatever the reason may be (which could be confusion in ancient times), <span style="font-style: italic;">Spill</span> [spI.l] and <span style="font-style: italic;">
Spęęl</span> (<span style="font-style: italic;">Spääl</span>) [spe:l] in the sense of 'play' are dialectically distributed in Low Saxon; i.e., some dialects use one and other dialects use the other. So it isn't a matter of right or wrong unless you focus on one dialect only.
<br></span><ul style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><li>Old Saxon: <span style="font-style: italic;">spel</span> 'speech', 'account', 'tale', <span style="font-style: italic;">spellunga</span> 'tale', 'story' (
<span style="font-style: italic;">bilithi</span> 'parable'); <span style="font-style: italic;">spil</span> 'play', 'movement', 'music', <span style="font-style: italic;">spilōn</span> 'to play', 'to move'
<br></li><li>Old Low Franconian: <span style="font-style: italic;">spel</span> 'account', 'tale', 'parable', 'speech'; <span style="font-style: italic;">spil</span> 'play'</li><li>Old Frisian:
<span style="font-style: italic;">spel</span> ~ <span style="font-style: italic;">spil</span> 'play' -- <span style="font-style: italic;">bīspil</span> 'example'</li><li>Old English: <span style="font-style: italic;">
spel</span> ~ <span style="font-style: italic;">spell</span> 'speech', 'account', 'tale', <span style="font-style: italic;">spellian</span> 'to tell', <span style="font-style: italic;">spellboda
</span> 'messenger', 'prophet'; <span style="font-style: italic;">spillian</span> 'to play' -- <span style="font-style: italic;">bīspell</span> 'example', 'parable'<br></li><li>Germanic:
<span style="font-style: italic;">*spela(m)</span> 'tale'; <span style="font-style: italic;">*spila(m)</span> 'play', 'dance'</li><li>Indo-European: <span style="font-style: italic;">*pel-</span> >
<span style="font-style: italic;">*spel-</span> 'to speak' (cf. Sanskrit भल- <span style="font-style: italic;">bhal-</span> 'to describe', 'to expound')<br></li></ul><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br><br>----------<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
</span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></font><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_mrdreyer@lantic.net" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Mark Dreyer <<a href="mailto:mrdreyer@lantic.net">mrdreyer@lantic.net</a>></span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg"></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.20 (01) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<div><div id="mb_2">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Beste Elsie
Zinsser</span></div><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></span>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br>Subject: LL-L "Etymology"<br><br>Thanks, & I have been lurking with
pleasure all along. I did catch the point about euphemism, but that is a rather
broad category, & I wanted to tighten it a bit</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">[The "alle" "part possibly
comes from 'almagtig', and is used euphemistically"] <br><br>I bet you did not know that
the 'alle'-prefix possibly derives
from our original Afrikaans speakers, the Cape
Muslim.</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Actually I have heard that
too. I wouldn't want to differ. It seems plain that the coincidence of language
that brought the adjective 'alle-' so close to the name of God in Arabic was
more than their worshipful tongues could allow, & for that to be part of a
Divine attribute even more.</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">On the other hand, in all
the Lowlands Languages, I believe, this construction was found long before
colonial contact with Muslims, consider the English 'Almighty'. To our
fathers too, it was surely provocative of charges of 'using The Lord's Name in
vain...'</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Well, other blokes are biting
too. A delicious string.</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">My dad, who comes from the
Bushmanland, still uses "allematjiesfontein!" </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Thanks for that!</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Tot Siens,</div>
<div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Mark<br><br>----------<br><br>From: </span><span id="_user_sandy@scotstext.org" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Sandy Fleming</span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg">
<<a href="mailto:sandy@scotstext.org">sandy@scotstext.org</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.20 (03) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span class="q">> From: "<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk">
heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk</a>"<br>> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.20 (01) [E]<br>><br></span></div><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span class="q">> In which case is it really the case that a person cannot be the
<br>> subject of being a byword<br>><br>> Casanova himself was a byword for lechery<br>> Casanova's name was a byword for lechery<br><br></span></div><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Well, the first seems improperly analysed to me, but there's plenty of<br>that sort of thing in language. Frequent general usage is more important<br>in language than analytical correcteness, I would say.<br><br>Judging by Luc's dictionary examples it looks like the word is used much
<br>more loosely than I realised.<br></div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="sg"><br>Sandy Fleming<br><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://scotstext.org/" target="_blank">
http://scotstext.org/</a><br></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_kevin.caldwell1963@verizon.net" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Kevin and Cheryl Caldwell <<a href="mailto:kevin.caldwell1963@verizon.net">
kevin.caldwell1963@verizon.net</a>></span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg"></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.20 (03) [E]</span><br>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><div id="mb_2">
<div link="blue" vlink="blue" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">I believe that a
person (or nation) can be referred to as a byword. The places where "byword" is
used in the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible are:</span></font></p>
<p><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Deut. 28:36-37 –
"The LORD shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a
nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou
serve other gods, wood and stone. And thou shalt become an astonishment, a
proverb, and a <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">byword</span></b>, among all
nations whither the LORD shall lead thee." [This is one of the curses God
promised would befall the Israelites if they didn't keep the law of Moses]</span></font></p>
<p><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">I Kings 9:6-7 – "But
if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not
keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and
serve other gods, and worship them: Then will I cut off Israel out of the land
which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name,
will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">byword</span></b> among all people."</span></font></p>
<p><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">2 Chronicles
7:19-20 – "But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments,
which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship
them; Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given
them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of
my sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">byword</span></b> among all nations." [Parallel text to the previous one,
except this time it is the temple that will become a byword]</span></font></p>
<p><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Job 17:6 – "He
hath made me also a <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">byword</span></b> of the
people…" [Job is speaking]</span></font></p>
<p><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Job 30:9 – "And
now am I their song, yea, I am their <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">byword</span></b>."
[Here Job is saying that people he used to hold in disdain now mock him and
avoid him.]</span></font></p>
<p><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Psalm 44:13-14 –
"Thou makest us a reproach to our neighbours, a scorn and a derision to them
that are round about us. Thou makest us a <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">byword</span></b>
among the heathen, a shaking of the head among the people." [The writer is
lamenting what has happened to the nation of Israel]</span></font></p><span class="sg">
<p><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Kevin Caldwell</span></font></p></span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="q">
<div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">
<p><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">From: <font color="#00681c"><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);"><span>"<a href="mailto:heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk</a>"</span></span></font><br>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.20 (01) [E]<br>
<br>
<font color="#5b1094"><span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Sandy Fleming</span></font> wrote<br>
<br>
However, none of the sentences you suggested make sense. A person can't<br>
be a word of any kind! I think to make sense you'd have to say: </span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">"His name was a byword in depravity."<br>
<br>
This means that in depraved circles his name was a byword (ie, anybody<br>
moving in depraved company would recognise it). <br>
<br>
Or you could say (and it's an even bigger insult): <br>
<br>
"His name is a byword for depravity."<br>
<br>
This is like saying people actually mention his name to suggest the idea<br>
that something or someone else is depraved, by comparing them to him in <br>
some way. <br>
<br>
Of course! I knew the sentences didn't ring true to my ear but I couldn't
work out what was wrong<br>
I think its possible origin as being cognate with "Beispiel /
Beispell" meaning 'an example' makes perfect sense: </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">His name was (an example) of depravity<br>The dodo is( an example) of man-made extinction </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
<p><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">In which case is it really the case that a person cannot be
the subject of being a byword</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Casanova himself was a byword for lechery<br>Casanova's name was a byword for lechery</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
<p><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">????</span></font></p>
</div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Heather</span></font></p>
</div>
</span></div>
</div>
</div></div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
From: </span><span id="_user_desnerck.roland@skynet.be" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Roland Desnerck</span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg"> <
<a href="mailto:desnerck.roland@skynet.be">desnerck.roland@skynet.be</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.20 (06) [LS]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Beste,</font>
</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">En in West-Vlaanderen zegt men: mesjhies, olteméts,
oltemee;</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">hé je olteméts e sulfertsje voe mien? heb je
mischien een lucifertje voor mij?</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Toetnoasteki!</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Roland Desnerck uut Osténde, Stad an
Zai</font></div><br></div></div>
</div></div><br>