<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 27 September 2007 - Volume 05</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Song Contest: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/contest/">lowlands-l.net/contest/</a> (- 31 Dec. 2007)</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
=========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span>
<span id="_user_luc.hellinckx@gmail.com" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Luc Hellinckx</span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg"> <<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">
luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Etymology"</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<div style="direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Beste Marlou,<br><br>You wrote:<br>><br>> ...according to Grimm:<br>><br>> /ganz bestimmt tritt aber auch der begriff des nicht ausgewachsenen
<br>> hervor. so bair./ krott /nicht nur als zärtliche benennung eines<br>> mädchens von kleinem wuchse, auch von jedem unter seinesgleichen<br>> besonders klein gebliebenen geschöpfe, menschen oder thiere, dazu/
<br>> verkrottet /gleich/ verbuttet, /im wachsthum zurückgeblieben,///<br>><br>> Kann unser plattdeutsches "Krattholt" für "Unterholz" davon kommen?<br><br>I actually think your "Kratt-" in "Krattholt" ties with German "Krätze",
<br>"(Rücken)korb" (basket, hod).<br>Related are Dutch "krat" (crate), English "cradle", Lithuanian "grandis"<br>(bracelet), Old Irish "grinne" (bundle of twigs, fascicle)...and maybe
<br>Old Indian "grathnati" (winds, ties up). These are all words that have<br>something to do with plaiting, and I guess that the twigs that were<br>needed for this activity may have come out of the Krattholt.<br>
<br>> auch das<br>> luxemb./ kratz /unter d findet wol einen anhalt in schwed./ kratta /f.<br>> kleines elendes pferd/ /R//IETZ/ 350^b .<br>><br>> Apparently, Northern English and Scots has similar words too,
<br>> "crut" and<br>> "croot".<br>><br>> Im Hochdeutschen gibt es das Wort "abkratzen" für ein langsames,<br>> elendes Versterben. Hat das etwa auch damit zu tun?!<br><br>
Duden: "abkratzen" ~ die Sitte des Kratzfußes ironisierend, und Kratzfuß<br>= eine Art Verbeugung bei der der Fuß scharrend nach hinten gezogen<br>wird, also nach dem kratzenden Gerausch, das dabei verursacht wird.
<br><br>What struck me though, is that in my Brabantish translation of the Wren,<br>I used the word "krööt(e)n" for the little bird in the end, and ?by<br>coincidence? Joachim Kreimer-de Fries said "de lütke Kratssack" in his
<br>Osnabrück translation. I can't give an etymology of this "Kratssack",<br>but it sounds very familiar, because Brabantish "kräätzak" means a<br>quarrelsome person.<br><br>Greetings,<br></div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="sg">
<br>Luc Hellinckx<br><br>----------<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <
</span><a style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
>
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: Etymology</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
I think you're on to something there, Luc.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">To me, the primary meaning of </span>
<span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Kratt</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> and </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Krattholt</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
is '(bundle(s) of) kindling'. I think of the sense 'undergrowth' as secondary. So it may have once meant "(loose) wood for the basket."</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Old German has </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">kratto</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> ~ </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
chratto</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> for '(carrying) basket', and Old English has </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">cræt</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
for the same. They are related to Indo-European *</span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">gret-</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> 'to weave (wicker)'. The Old German word must be derived from *
</span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">kraddo</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> ~ *</span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">chraddo</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
since otherwise it would be *</span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">krazzo ~ *</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
krazzo</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> > *</span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Krätz(e)</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">, though in some Old and Middle German dialects you do find the forms
</span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">chrezzo</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">, </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">chrezze</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
and </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">kreizo</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">, and some Modern German dialects do have </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Krätze</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">And ... tada! ... it's related to English "cradle" via diminution (
</span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-style: italic;">*</span>cræd-l</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> > <span style="font-style: italic;">cradel</span>
). So a cradle started off as a small or "dear" basket (bassinet). Some Modern German dialects also use </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Krätze</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
for 'cradle'.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">By the way, </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Krœtsack</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> is in the original version of the story (</span><a style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" href="http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/nordneddersassisch.php">lowlands-l.net/anniversary/nordneddersassisch.php
</a><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">). I suppose it got perpetuated in translations into closely related language varieties.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">I am quite convinced that the first part in </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Krœtsack</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
is related to </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Kratt</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">. Bear in mind that it has a monophthong ([œ(:)] which tends to be derived from [a:]) while Low Saxon dialects that have a cognate of German
</span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Kröte</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> 'toad' have a diphthong here: </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Krööt </span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">[krœıt] ~ </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Kräut</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> [kroıt]. So I contend that
<span style="font-style: italic;">Kratt</span> and </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Krœtsack</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> have nothing to do with toads.</span>
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">As for semantics of </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Krœtsack</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> etc., I have no problem taking the leap. A person that is a </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Krœtsack</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
is cantankerous, crabby or cranky. This could well be because collected kindling -- sticks and odds and ends of wood -- don't fit very well into bags, and when you carry such a bag you'll find it to be an unpleasant experience, what with all the sticking-out, scratching, poking and carrying-on ...
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">