<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 08 October 2007 - Volume 03</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Song Contest: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/contest/">lowlands-l.net/contest/</a> (- 31 Dec. 2007)</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
=========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <
<a href="mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL">ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Language politics"
2007.10.08 (02) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">About a Low Saxon standard etc.:</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">I do not think we need this. In the Netherlands there are several Low</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Saxon dialects, that can differ quite a bit from eachother. There is not
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">one leading variety, not even one leading city or area, nor a leading</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
group of actors or so, from which a standard would be accepted over other</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">varieties. Technically, the differences are too big as well to make some
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">kind of intermediate LS. But, at least within the Netherlands, someone</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
speaking one dialect is not usually ashamed or afraid to use his own LS</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">variety in communicating with speakers of different varieties. And I think
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">that's one of the beauties of Low Saxon: it is one languages, but it has</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">many forms, and there is not one that is better or more civilized or so</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">than the others. Some languages in the world have standard forms, but most
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">of them even don't, LS is not so unique in this aspect. E.g. in Drenthe, a</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Low Saxon speaking province in the N.O. Netherlands, Low Saxon is taught</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">in several towns, but the course book only in this small province with
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">maybe 400.000 inhabitants already has five or six varieties, according to</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
the local dialect or rather the regiolect in that particular area. But</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">that is no problem at all.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Of course, the fact that LS and other non standard languages are less and</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">less spoken in many western countries is a big concern, but I doubt if
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">that has something to do with standardisation or not. In Switzerland, for</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
example, every town and area has its own variety too, there is no standard</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Schwytzerdütsch, and it is seldom written I think, but everybody is
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">speaking it all the time.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Well, that's what I wanted to say about it, as a Low Saxon speaker from
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">the Netherlands</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
---------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>Subject: Language politics<br><br>Moyen, Ingmar!<br><br>Alemannic, especially Swiss Alemannic (</span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Schwytzerdütsch</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
), is written quite a bit, not only in informal communication but in published literature as well. Bear in mind that many Northern Swiss people and also many people across the Austrian border in Vorarlberg consider their Alemannic varieties to constitute a language in its own right, and they separate them from Standard German which they can use as well (usually in formal situations) and from German non-standard varieties of Germany as well.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Even though these varieties belong to three distinct groups -- lower (low), upper (high), and uppermost (highest), not to mention Swabian as a link to German -- mutual intelligibility is pretty good. Because the
<span style="text-decoration: underline;">official</span> view has been that they are German dialects, a standard Alemannic variety has been considered unnecessary under the umbrella language German. In the very north they tried to do the same thing: make Low Saxon a German dialect group and use German as the "high" language for it as well (which, of course, necessitated declaring the Low Saxon dialects left of the border a foreign language, if not dialects of Dutch, and Dutch influences provided a convenient hook onto which to hang that alienation coat). As you can see, in the case of Low Saxon this German umbrella model won't fly anymore these days, if it ever did, not even as a parachute.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">I personally don't really need a standard Low Saxon variety, because I understand all the dialects pretty darn well, only once in a while have to ask about the meaning of a specific word or expression. However, I realize that not everyone has as easy a time. I believe that if everyone keeps writing in their own dialects, it would be very helpful indeed to use
</span><span style="font-weight: bold; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">one method</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> of spelling them. </span><span style="font-weight: bold; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
No, it is <span style="text-decoration: underline;">not</span> the same as creating a neutral written language!</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> (This is a conclusion people of the more paranoid type like to jump to or use to defend the status quo.) It is only a matter of using the same
</span><span style="text-decoration: underline; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">method</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> of spelling different dialects so as to replicate what happens when people talk with each other. At the moment there are various German- and Dutch-based methods flying around, usually not followed to the "t," and are creating greater chaos than there needs to be.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">As I have mentioned previously, Nynorsk (Neo-Norwegian), one of two Norwegian languages, appears to be a fairly good model. It doesn't have a hard-and-fast set of rules, no usiform lexicon, no standard variety as such, though with time a written standard has begun to materialize "naturally." You can still easily tell which area of Norway a Nynorsk writer is from. It's easy to read other people's dialects, though, because they are all written using the same method of spelling; there is no jumble as in Low Saxon.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">What still gets in the way in the case of Low Saxon and which has been of decreasing importance in the case of Nynorsk is that people are hung up on purism: they insist that a dialect must not change and that dialects must not be mixed, that "older and purer is better." (As Sandy explained, language change is inevitable, and I should add that language contacts are inevitable unless you build a wall around a speaker community.) Get off it already! The Nynorsk crowd in Norway used to grapple with the same "problems" in the beginning. It's much better these days as people have learned that changes and mixing did not cause the world as they knew it to explode or implode. And because they pulled their heads out of their tight, purist backsides and learned to relax they are actually getting things done and literature written, and they get to enjoy themselves.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Cheerio!</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">---------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_douglas.hinton@gmail.com" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Douglas Hinton <<a href="mailto:douglas.hinton@gmail.com">
douglas.hinton@gmail.com</a>></span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br>Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.10.09 (01) [E/LS]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br>
A couple years ago my wife and I were visiting Brugge as tourists and
were approached by some school girls. They spoke to us in french and
asked for directions. Before we could answer a woman spoke loudly in
dutch to the girls. "You are in Brugge now, why are you speaking
french?". That gives an indication of what language means to a country.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Wonderful country though, Belgium, and fascinating the way the language on traffic signs changes when crossing the country.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Regards, Douglas Hinton</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">---------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_jonny.meibohm@arcor.de" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">jonny</span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg">
<<a href="mailto:jonny.meibohm@arcor.de">jonny.meibohm@arcor.de</a>></span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> <br>Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.10.09 (01) [E/LS]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<div><font size="2"><span>Dear Sandy,</span></font></div><span class="q">
<div><font size="2"><span></span> </font></div>
<div><font size="2"><span>you wrote:</span></font></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>> But from what I see on this list
<br>> there's actually no real problem in communicating in Low Saxon
amongst<br>> different dialects in writing, and the problems with the extra
phonetic<br>> differences that make speech varieties more disparate needn't
be an <br>> issue.</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div></span>
<div><font size="2"><span>Yes- we, the list members, can
communicate transborderly, but my 12years old son could not. And for my opinion,
if the situation really is not hopeless, he and his mates should be the
next generation to SPEAK Low Saxon, and I would wish him speaking it better than
his father.</span></font></div>
<div><font size="2"><span></span> </font></div>
<div><font size="2"><span>
<div><span><span>In his life he twice had </span>t<span>a</span>k<span>en</span> part
in any LS-sompetition. Their task: to read textes written in
LS.</span></div>
<div><span>I have to admit that my son
isn't the very high flyer to lecture, but he won a prize 2 years
ago<span> during his first
attempt</span>.</span></div>
<div><span>This year he (marginally)<span> </span>failed to win a<span>nother</span> prize<span>-</span> but that was foreseeable because he
had asked me before the examine: "Daddy- what <span>horrible </span>kind of LS is THAT?" Of course- not our
one's (and I had made the mistake to trans<span>s</span>cribe some <span>Standard German </span>words into <span>'</span>real<span>'</span>
LS, <span>on the substrate of</span> our
local dialect<span>, and the commision took it
amiss...</span>).</span></div>
<div><span><span>Just to <span>shorten it</span>: I fear
he'll never take part again in any of these doubtful competitions<span>, because he isn't any longer willing and able to close
this ditch between his father's and neighbour's language and any new-aged
wanna-be-'Platt'.</span></span></span></div>
<div><span><span><span>Do you want more
reality?</span></span></span></div>
<div><span><span><span></span></span></span> </div>
<div><span><span><span>BTW: the prices this time partly were won
by children who nearly never had come into contact with spoken, familiar, living
LS.</span></span></span></div>
</span></font><span class="q"><span><br><span>> </span>It seems strange to me that you argue the
mutual unintelligibility of<br><span>>
</span>different Low Saxon dialects and yet complain that they're all
watered<br><span>> </span>down with words from
German and Dutch. How can the different dialects of <br><span>> </span>Low Saxon in, say, Germany be
irreconcilable with each other and yet not<br><span>> </span>worthily distinct from
German?</span></span></div></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><span>There are two very different
classes of speakers: the few still existing, but fast dying out real natives,
well trained and familiar with the language since their youth and those
Pseudo-Low-Saxons who are on a low, watered level. Not only me did
mention this in previous discussions.</span></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><span>But no matter which
group's ability you'll take- all of them are watered to a sorrowful
level.</span></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><span>I'm dolorously aware of the
fact that I myself am one of the water-carriers, and this is another
reasons why I use my strenghth more in collecting (nearly) forgotten words,
phrases and social and linguistic background of the past and present than to
take part in any doubtful experiments for a dark and perhaps
hopeless future.</span></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><span></span> </font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><span>In the words of our Paul
Finlow-Bates:</span></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span>> Expansion of your language doesn't
strengthen your identity, it dilutes it .</span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" align="left">Allerbest!</div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="sg">
<div align="left"> </div>
<div align="left">Jonny Meibohm</div></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">