<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 15 October 2007 - Volume 01<br>Song Contest: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/contest/">lowlands-l.net/contest/</a> (- 31 Dec. 2007)<br>=========================================================================
<br><br>From: <span id="_user_ir.j.liek@gmail.com" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Jaap Liek <<a href="mailto:ir.j.liek@gmail.com">ir.j.liek@gmail.com</a>></span><br>Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.10.14
(05) [E]<br><br><span class="q">> From: Diederik Masure <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:didimasure@hotmail.com">didimasure@hotmail.com</a>><br>> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"
2007.10.14 (01) [E]<br></span><div style="direction: ltr;"><span class="q">> later unrounded to /i/ or /e/. Cf. West Flemish pit (English pit,<br>> Dutch put), or traditional/old Southern Hollandic dialects "mitch" as
<br>> I once heard a friend use, mosquito, English midge/Dutch mug.<br>> In most of the cases, Dutch /u/ (/y/) thus correspondends to<br>> German /ü/ (/y/).<br>> Cfr. also<br>> <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/weij005nede01/weij005nede01ill55.gif" target="_blank">
http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/weij005nede01/weij005nede01ill55.gif</a> for ü ><br>> i.<br></span></div><div style="direction: ltr;">In het Schouws (Noord-Zeeuws) noemen we dat insect een 'mogge'.<br></div><div style="direction: ltr;">
<span class="sg">--<br>Jaap Liek <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:ir.j.liek@gmail.com">ir.j.liek@gmail.com</a>><br><br>----------<br><br></span>From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <
<a href="mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL">ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL</a>><br>Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.10.14 (05) [E]<br>
<br>What Diederick (ha, hoe gaat het met jou?) wrote is true for short u.<br>Written u in closed syllables stands for the short sound [Y] or rather [2]<br>in Standard Dutch, and for [U] in German. U in open syllables in Dutch is
<br>[y], or [y:] before r. In close syllables, this is spelt uu. Examples:<br>rug [r2x] = back, bukken ["b2k@] = to bend; futen ["fyt@] = a kind of<br>water bird (plural), buren ["by:r@] = neighbors; huur [hy:r] = rent; fuut
<br>[fyt] = a kind of water bird (singular). In German, long u = [u:],<br>sometimes spelt uh. I thought, Ben, you were not asking about Old Germanic<br>u, only how it is used in ortho and prono in Dutch and German nowadays, is
<br>that true? Well, the state border is the pronunciation border as well in<br>this case: e.g. at the Dutch side of the border "natuur" = [na"ty:r], and<br>at the German side it's "Natur" = [na"thu:9].
<br><br>Groeten/grüsse<br>Ingmar<br><br>Diederik Masure schreef:<br><div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 102);">As Ron pointed out, Dutch /y/ vs. German /u/ are not in complementary<br>distribution, the two languages only use the same grapheme for these
<br>different sounds. Dutch /y/ rather correspondends with words that in German<br>have /ü/: rug, rück(e?) [Engl. back; my German is not so accurate]. Brug<br>vs.<br>brück(e? not sure about this -e either). The umlaut of old Germanic /u/
<br>usually turns up as /y/ in both languages, written /u/ and /ü/. In<br>(traditional) coastal Dutch dialects that later unrounded to /i/ or /e/.<br>Cf.<br>West Flemish pit (English pit, Dutch put), or traditional/old Southern
<br>Hollandic dialects "mitch" as I once heard a friend use, mosquito, English<br>midge/Dutch mug.<br>In most of the cases, Dutch /u/ (/y/) thus correspondends to German /ü/<br>(/y/).<br>Cfr. also <a href="http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/weij005nede01/weij005nede01ill55.gif">
http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/weij005nede01/weij005nede01ill55.gif</a><br>for<br>ü > i.<br><br>The old Germanic /u/ however, remained /u/ in many words in (Standard) High<br>German, and is spelled /u/. In Standard Dutch, this sound generally became
<br>/o/ and is thus written /o/. German /hund/ is Dutch /hond/, etcetera.<br>The dialectal situation in Dutch is however more complicated. In front of<br>/p:/, /k:/, /f:/ /m:/ and /ng:/ it's usually preserved in the Antwerp
<br>dialect, and probably in a bigger area in (Belgian) Brabant as well,<br>although I don't dare to draw any conclusions about other Brab. dialects.<br>In<br>more modern Antw. dialect (due to standard influence), only /ng/ and /m/
<br>still preserve the /u/ instead of the /o/, apart from some frequent<br>relictwords as oep (Engl. up, Dutch op) or stoeffen (actually <stoffen,<br>but<br>since the word doesnt exist in St. D. it didn't get replaced with an /o/)
<br>Traditional dialect has poep (puppet, Dutch pop), and boek (buck, Dutch<br>bok); but these forms are now only seldomly used anymore.<br>The distribution of Old Norse /u/ > /o/, /u/ in standard spoken Norwegian<br>is
<br>similar to that of Antwerpian (pp, kk, m, ng/nk, ff)<br><br></div></div><br>