<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 16 October 2007 - Volume 03</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Song Contest: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/contest/">lowlands-l.net/contest/</a> (- 31 Dec. 2007)</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
=========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <
<a href="mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL">ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"
2007.10.16 (01) [D/E/V]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">I think [Y] not [y] is the Antwerp and Belgian Brabantish pronunciation
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">for Dutch short u, and [I] not [i] for Dutch short i. That's about the</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
same as in German and German Low Saxon.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">In Standard Dutch that's i [e] and u [2], so it is in Dutch Low Saxon.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">And in some West Flemish and Zeeland accents i => 'è' [E] and u => "ö"</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
[9], and e => æ [{], and a => å [Q].</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">We're not just talking about how these sounds are pronounced in dialects</span>
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">here, but in accents when people (try to) speak Standard Dutch, too.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
A Belgian Brabander will say [rYC] rug = back in Standard Dutch, whereas a</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Dutch Hollander will say [R2x] or [r2x] and a West Fleming [r9h]. Also
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">note the different pronos of 'r' and especially of 'g' as [x], [C] or [h].</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">The Brabant final g and ch sound just like the German ich laut [C].</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
BTW I think this sound occurs initially in English words like huge</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">[C'u:dZ] etc as well, is that right?</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Groeten</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Ingmar</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Diederik Masure <</span><a style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:didimasure@hotmail.com">
didimasure@hotmail.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">> schreef:</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Ah yes, only after sending the mail I remembered that /y/ actually is</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">pronounced /Y/ in the Netherlands and parts of Belgium... I keep stubbornly
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">using my /y/ (and long /y./ [or /Y./] with distinctive length for uu) even</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
when speaking more or less standard Dutch - the /Y/ is something most</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">people</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
I know don't manage to get over their lips (similar with /i/ vs. /I/- for</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">being Hollandic, or even worse, West-Flemish (no offence - this however is
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">how the average Aantwaarpener sees it). And of course we don't want to</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
sound</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">like people in de Vlönders with their strange /e/ instead of /i/ etc...;)</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">I myself keep talking after my sister/repeating what she says whenever she</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">produces those weird /Y/ and /I/'s. Stupid "dictie"classes.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Thus; although not officially, /y/ actually is used quite a lot in belgian</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">(sub)standard dutch.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">But the actual pronounciation of /y/ or /Y/ doesn't affect the main point
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">of</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">my above explanation anyway:)
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder < </span><a style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL">ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL
</a><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.10.14 (05) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">What Diederick (ha, hoe gaat het met jou?) wrote is true for short u.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Written u in closed syllables stands for the short sound [Y] or rather [2]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">in Standard Dutch, and for [U] in German. U in open syllables in Dutch is
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">[y], or [y:] before r. In close syllables, this is spelt uu. Examples:</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
rug [r2x] = back, bukken ["b2k@] = to bend; futen ["fyt@] = a kind of</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">water bird (plural), buren ["by:r@] = neighbors; huur [hy:r] = rent; fuut
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">[fyt] = a kind of water bird (singular). In German, long u = [u:],</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
sometimes spelt uh. I thought, Ben, you were not asking about Old Germanic</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">u, only how it is used in ortho and prono in Dutch and German nowadays, is
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">that true? Well, the state border is the pronunciation border as well in</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
this case: e.g. at the Dutch side of the border "natuur" = [na"ty:r], and</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">at the German side it's "Natur" = [na"thu:9].
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <<a href="mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL">ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.10.16 (02) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Isn't that: German Rücken = ["RYk_N] instead of ["rYk_h@n] back(s) ?</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">At least that is the German pronunciation you can here all the time</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">both "live" as in movies, TV (krimis) etc.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Ingmar</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Ron wrote</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: Language varieties</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> - rüg (Rügg, Rüch) [rYC] = G. Rücken ["rYk_h@n] 'back' (cogn. "ridge")</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> - rüggen (Rüggen) [rYgN] = G. Rücken ["rYk_h@n] 'backs'</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
>
</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Subject: Language varieties<br><br>Ingmar,<br><br>That's the casual, northern-influenced (thus LS-influenced) pronunciation, which is, however, creeping southward, and it tends to be heard in "real-live" movies. To many people it still sounds distinctly northern, and they might fault you for teaching it to foreigners. However, my prediction is that with time it will take over.
<br><br>The schwa sound is still heard in the south and also in "better," more formal modes (speeches, theater, etc.) elsewhere.<br><br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br><br></span>