<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 16 October 2007 - Volume 01</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Song Contest: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/contest/">lowlands-l.net/contest/</a> (- 31 Dec. 2007)</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
=========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span>
<span id="_user_didimasure@hotmail.com" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Diederik Masure</span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg"> <<a href="mailto:didimasure@hotmail.com">
didimasure@hotmail.com</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.10.15 (01) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);" class="q">
From: Jaap Liek <<a href="mailto:ir.j.liek@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">ir.j.liek@gmail.com</a>></span><br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);" class="q">
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.10.14 (05) [E]</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);" class="q">
<div style="direction: ltr;"> </div>In het Schouws (Noord-Zeeuws) noemen we dat insect een 'mogge'.</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 102);" class="q"></span><br><span class="q"></span></div>
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="q"><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Ok...
this friend spoke (speaks) the archaic dialect of Alblasserwaard/-dam
or some place about there, I guess the unrounding isn't the same
everywhere... </span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="q"><br><br></span><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" class="q">From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <
<a href="mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL</a>></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" class="q">
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.10.14 (05) [E]</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" class="q"></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" class="q">
What Diederick (ha, hoe gaat het met jou?) wrote is true for short u.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" class="q">Written u in closed syllables stands for the short sound [Y] or rather [2]
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" class="q">in Standard Dutch, and for [U] in German. U in open syllables in Dutch is </span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" class="q">
[y], or [y:] before r. In close syllables, this is spelt uu. Examples:</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" class="q">rug [r2x] = back, bukken ["b2k@] = to bend; futen ["fyt@] = a kind of
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" class="q">water bird (plural), buren ["by:r@] = neighbors; huur [hy:r] = rent; fuut </span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" class="q">
[fyt] = a kind of water bird (singular). In German, long u = [u:],</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" class="q">sometimes spelt uh. I thought, Ben, you were not asking about Old Germanic
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" class="q">u, only how it is used in ortho and prono in Dutch and German nowadays, is </span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" class="q">
that true? Well, the state border is the pronunciation border as well in</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span class="q"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">this case: e.g. at the Dutch side of the bord</span>er "natuur" = [na"ty:r], and
</span><br><span class="q"></span></div><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span class="q"><span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">at the German side it's "Natur" = [na"thu:9].
</span></span><br><span class="q"></span></div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="q"><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Ah
yes, only after sending the mail I remembered that /y/ actually is
pronounced /Y/ in the Netherlands and parts of Belgium... I keep
stubbornly using my /y/ (and long /y./ [or /Y./] with distinctive
length for uu) even when speaking more or less standard Dutch - the /Y/
is something most people I know don't manage to get over their lips
(similar with /i/ vs. /I/- for being Hollandic, or even worse,
West-Flemish (no offence - this however is how the average
Aantwaarpener sees it). And of course we don't want to sound like
people in de Vlönders with their strange /e/ instead of /i/ etc...;) </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">I
myself keep talking after my sister/repeating what she says whenever
she produces those weird /Y/ and /I/'s. Stupid "dictie"classes. </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Thus; although not officially, /y/ actually is used quite a lot in belgian (sub)standard dutch.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">But the actual pronounciation of /y/ or /Y/ doesn't affect the main point of my above explanation anyway:)
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_desnerck.roland@skynet.be" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Roland Desnerck</span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg">
<<a href="mailto:desnerck.roland@skynet.be">desnerck.roland@skynet.be</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"
2007.10.15 (01) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Hallo beste Laaglanders,</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Jaap vermeldde het Noord-Zeeuws voor "mug" =
mogge.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Het Oostends (Kust-West-Vlaams) voor "mug" = mezje
(met dee stemhebbende "zj" die je ook vindt in Jacques,
George(s)...</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">In verband met "rug" = rik; rugvin =
rikvinne.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">De "u" voor een R klinkt in ons dialect als een
"eu" = natuur: nateur; zuur: zeur; muur: meur; schuur = sjheure; de
verkleinwoorden zijn: naturtsje, zurtsje, murtsje, sjhurtsje.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">"Kleur" = kleur; maar het verkleinwoord is ook
"klurtsje".</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">En dan "stuur" = stier; "duur" = diere; "vuur"
= vier; viersjhip: lichtschip. Het telwoord "vier" = viere (ain, twai,
drieje, viere, vuuve, zésse, zeevn, achte, neegn, tiene, élve (êve), twolve
(twoave). </font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">"Ruw" is noh het oudere: ruudig (vgl. Eng. rude);
(vgl. vissoçoorten: ruwe rog = ruuder; gladderog = glédder.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Tussen haakjes Ron: het West-Vlaams voor "kijken" =
kiekn, kie.n (dus niet: kieke).</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Roger, oke ikke hén me genêrd mé joen biedrage
over uuze Vlamsjhe gesjhiedenisse (genêrn = vermeien, plezier beleven
aan).</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Toetnoasteki.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Roland uut Osténde, West-Vlaanderen.<br><br>----------<br><br></font>
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>
>
<span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);"></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"></span><br>
Subject: Language varieties<br><br>Hi, everyone,<br><br>About the vowels /u/ and /ü/:<br><br>In the Northern Low Saxon, the short /ü/ is [Y] as in Germany:<br><ul><li><span style="font-style: italic;">müg</span> (<span style="font-style: italic;">
Mügg</span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">Müch</span>) [mYC] = G. <span style="font-style: italic;">Mücke</span> ["mYk_h@] 'mosquito' (cogn. "midge")</li><li><span style="font-style: italic;">müggen
</span> (<span style="font-style: italic;">Müggen</span>) [mYgN] = G. <span style="font-style: italic;">Mücke</span> ["mYk_h@n] 'mosquitoes' </li></ul><ul><li><span style="font-style: italic;">rüg</span> (<span style="font-style: italic;">
Rügg</span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">Rüch</span>) [rYC] = G. <span style="font-style: italic;">Rücken</span> ["rYk_h@n] 'back' (cogn. "ridge")</li><li><span style="font-style: italic;">rüggen
</span> (<span style="font-style: italic;">Rüggen</span>) [rYgN] = G. <span style="font-style: italic;">Rücken</span> ["rYk_h@n] 'backs' </li></ul></div><ul style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><li><span style="font-style: italic;">
<span style="font-style: italic;">b</span>rüg</span> (<span style="font-style: italic;">Brügg</span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">Rüch</span>) [brYC] = G. <span style="font-style: italic;">Bücke</span> ["brYk_h@] 'bridge'
<br></li><li><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">b</span>rüggen</span> (<span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Br</span>üggen</span>) [brYgN] = G. <span style="font-style: italic;">
Bücken</span> ["brYk_h@n] 'bridges'</li></ul><ul style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><li><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">st</span>ük</span> (<span style="font-style: italic;">
Stück</span><span style="font-style: italic;"></span>) [stYk] = G. <span style="font-style: italic;">Stück</span> ["StYk] 'piece'</li></ul>
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Umlauting in alternation:</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">
</span></span></span><ul style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><li><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"></span>kuss</span></span> (<span style="font-style: italic;">
Kuss</span><span style="font-style: italic;"></span>) [k_hUs] = G. <span style="font-style: italic;">Kuss</span> ["k_hUs] 'kiss'<br>
</li><li><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">k</span>üss</span> (<span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">K</span>üss</span>) [k_hYs] = G. <span style="font-style: italic;">
Küsse</span> ["k_hYs@] 'kisses'</li><li><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">k</span>üss</span>en ["k_hYsn] = G. <span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">
k</span>üssen</span> ["k_hYs@n] 'to kiss', 'kissing'<br></li></ul>
<ul style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><li><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">put ~ pot</span></span> (<span style="font-style: italic;">Putt ~ Pott</span><span style="font-style: italic;">
</span>) [p_hUt] ~ [p_hOt] = (G. <span style="font-style: italic;">Topf</span> [t_hOpf]) 'pot'<br>
</li><li><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">p</span>üt ~ pöt</span> (<span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">P</span></span><span style="font-style: italic;">ütt~ P
</span><span style="font-style: italic;">ött</span>) [p_hYt] ~ [p_h9t] = (G. <span style="font-style: italic;">T</span><span style="font-style: italic;">öpfe</span> ["t_h9pf@]) 'pots'</li><li><span style="font-style: italic;">
<span style="font-style: italic;">p</span>ütschern</span> ["p_hYtS3n] (< <span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">p</span>ütjern</span>) 'to potter' > 'to tinker', 'to busy oneself'
<br></li></ul><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">It also occurs where German does not have umlauting:</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><ul style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><li><span style="font-style: italic;">
ünner</span> ["?Yn3] = G. <span style="font-style: italic;">unter</span> ["?Unt@`] 'under'</li></ul><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Short /i/ sometimes changed to /ü/, especially adjacent to labial consonants:
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><ul style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><li><span style="font-style: italic;">b</span><span style="font-style: italic;">üst</span> [bYs(t)] = G. <span style="font-style: italic;">
bist</span> [bIst] '(thou) art'</li><li><span style="font-style: italic;">b</span><span style="font-style: italic;">ün</span> [bYn] = G. <span style="font-style: italic;">bin</span> [bIn] '(I) am'</li><li>
<span style="font-style: italic;">vr</span><span style="font-style: italic;">ünd</span> (<span style="font-style: italic;">Fr</span><span style="font-style: italic;">ünd</span>) [frYn(t)] = D. <span style="font-style: italic;">
vriend</span> 'friend'<br></li></ul><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Long /üü/ [y:], on the other hand, tends to correspond to German </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
eu</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> or </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">äu</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> [OI] and to Dutch </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
uu</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> [y:] or, in umlauting, </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">ui</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">:</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<ul style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><li><span style="font-style: italic;">l</span><span style="font-style: italic;">ü</span><span style="font-style: italic;">üd'</span> (<span style="font-style: italic;">L</span>
<span style="font-style: italic;">ü</span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">(</span>üd('))</span>)<span style="font-style: italic;"> </span>[ly:.(d)] = G. <span style="font-style: italic;">
Leute</span> ["lOIt_h@] = D. <span style="font-style: italic;">lui</span> 'people', 'folk'</li><li>v<span style="font-style: italic;"></span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">
uy</span></span><span style="font-style: italic;">r</span> (<span style="font-style: italic;">F</span><span style="font-style: italic;"></span><span style="font-style: italic;">ü</span><span style="font-style: italic;"></span>
<span style="font-style: italic;">ür</span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">F</span><span style="font-style: italic;">üer</span>) = G. <span style="font-style: italic;">Feuer</span> ["fOI@3`] = D. <span style="font-style: italic;">
vuur</span> 'fire'</li><li><span style="font-style: italic;"></span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">d</span>uy</span><span style="font-style: italic;">r</span> (<span style="font-style: italic;">
d</span><span style="font-style: italic;">ü</span><span style="font-style: italic;">ür</span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">d</span><span style="font-style: italic;">üer</span><span style="font-style: italic;">) </span>
[dy:3] = G. <span style="font-style: italic;">teuer</span> ["t_hOI@3`] = D. <span style="font-style: italic;">duur</span> 'expensive' (cogn. "dear")<br></li></ul><ul style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<li><span style="font-style: italic;">bruud</span> (<span style="font-style: italic;">Bruut</span>) [bru:t] = G. <span style="font-style: italic;">Braut</span> [braUt] = D. <span style="font-style: italic;">bruid</span> 'bride'
</li><li><span style="font-style: italic;">bruyd'</span> (<span style="font-style: italic;">Br</span><span style="font-style: italic;">ü</span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">(</span>
üd('))</span>) [bry:.(d)] = G. <span style="font-style: italic;">Br</span><span style="font-style: italic;">äute</span> ["brOIt_h@] = D. <span style="font-style: italic;">bruiden</span> 'brides'</li></ul>
<ul style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><li><span style="font-style: italic;">huus</span> (<span style="font-style: italic;">Huus</span>) [hu:s] = G. <span style="font-style: italic;">Haus</span> [haUs] = D. <span style="font-style: italic;">
huis</span> 'house' <br></li><li><span style="font-style: italic;">huys'</span> (<span style="font-style: italic;">H</span><span style="font-style: italic;">ü</span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">
</span>üs(')</span>) [hy:.z] = G. <span style="font-style: italic;">H</span><span style="font-style: italic;">äuser</span> ["hOIz@] = D. <span style="font-style: italic;">huizen</span> 'houses'</li></ul><ul style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<li><span style="font-style: italic;">tuun</span> (<span style="font-style: italic;">Tuun</span>) [t_hu:n] = G. <span style="font-style: italic;">Zaun</span> [ts_haUn] 'fence' = D. <span style="font-style: italic;">
tuin</span> 'garden' (cogn. "town")<br></li><li><span style="font-style: italic;">tuyn</span> (<span style="font-style: italic;">T</span><span style="font-style: italic;">ü</span><span style="font-style: italic;">
<span style="font-style: italic;"></span>ün</span>) [t_hy:.n] = G. <span style="font-style: italic;">Z</span><span style="font-style: italic;">äune</span> ["ts_hOIn@] 'fences' = D. <span style="font-style: italic;">
tuinen</span> 'gardens'<br></li></ul><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">By the way, in Standard German aspiration applies to all syllable-initial voiceless stop and affricate consonants (p, t, k, pf, z [ts]), which is basically the same system as in Southern England English and in Danish, in Low Saxon it applies only in word-initial syllables, which is basically the same system as that of American English. As a result (so to speak), intervocalic (thus unaspirated) /t/ becomes a flap sound, the same as the "American flap" as in "better" (LS
</span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">beter</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">) and "butter" (LS </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
butter</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> ~ </span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">botter</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">).</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">