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<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 22 October 2007 - Volume 04</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Song Contest: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/contest/">lowlands-l.net/contest/</a> (now - 31 Dec. 2007)</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span>
<span id="_user_sandy@scotstext.org" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Sandy Fleming</span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg"> <<a href="mailto:sandy@scotstext.org">
sandy@scotstext.org</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.10.22 (03) [D/E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">> From: Paul Finlow-Bates <<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.10.21 (01) [E/German]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
> >>The distinction between such things as "rig" (Scots) and</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">> "ridge" (English) is well-known, the "hard" sounds being Scandinavian
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">> influences:</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">> This is fascinating! One wouldn't connect this part of the world with
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">> Scandinavian influence ..</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
I realise you're talking from the perspective of historical migration,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">but more pragmatically, I suppose anywhere with a river could be subject
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">to assorted Norse intrusions.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Now I'm going from distant memory and local legend, though no doubt the</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">subject could be firmed up a bit with some web research if you're really
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">interested...</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Here in Somerset, there are various rivers running from far inland to</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">the coast, many of which are important as part of the drainage system
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">without which much of the county would be underwater or swampy. I</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
remember reading that in one of the Sagas, a fleet of Viking longships</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">came down one river in this area (the Parrett, is the biggest, I think,
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">so possibly that), and never came back.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Interestingly there's a corresponding local legend about a fleet of</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">longships that came down the Parrett and while the Norsemen were all
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">ashore spreading terror amongst the populace, one old woman took</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
advantage of her inconspicuousness by walking quietly along the shore</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">cutting all the ropes that held the boats. The Norsemen, finding
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">themselves marooned, took stock of their options: some surrendered and</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
were assimilated, those who wouldn't see reason were left alone to</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">become lost and drowned in the vast swamplands.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">This, and various other incursions, is said to explain the presence of</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Norse words in Saxon dialects of the west of England. For example, as</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">someone pointed out on the list recently, the pronunciation of
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">"house/hause" is fairly consistent across dialects from German to</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
English, but in Scots it's "hoose" /hus/ because of Norse influence. In</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Somerset dialects, this is "huish" (such as "Huish Epsicopi" (Bishop's
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">House), near Yeovil, and "Huish Park" (the Yeovil football ground).</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Huish... OK, could be Flemish :)</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">> Subject: Etymology</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">> Genitive (possessive) "'s" in place names (always?) involves proper
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">> names (including titles and places, the latter especially churches and</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
> parishes), such as the following in England alone:</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
> Abbot's Bromley, Barnard's Inn, Barnard's Inn, Bicester King's End,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">> Bigge's Quarter, Bishop's Castle, Bishop's Caundle, Bishop's Cleeve,
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">I don't think this sort of thing is normally written with the</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">apostrophe, however. Certainly, "Bishops Caundle", near where I live,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">wouldn't be.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">What about "Lands End"! The exception that tests the rule?</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Sandy Fleming</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><a href="http://scotstext.org/">
http://scotstext.org/</a></span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <<a href="mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL">
ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.10.22 (03) [D/E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Aha... so the Jutes themselves were no Scandinavians yet, unlike their
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">present day descendants? Were the old Jutish Ingvaeonic West Germanics,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
closely related to Anglians, Frisians and Saxons?</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Btw present day Jutish of Jutland, Denmark, like Norwegian and Swedish,</span>
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">but unlike the standard Danish of its home country, also has soft kj and gj</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Ingmar</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Paul Finlow-Bates schreef:</span>
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Throughout Northern England actually, rather more so than Scotland in fact</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">(Danish/Norse place names become fewer as you cross the border from</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Northumberland).
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">But there is evidence that the hard "g" and "k" in the North (seen in pairs
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">such as brig/bridge, ditch/dyke, kist/chest, kirk/church etc) was still a</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
feature of northern, Anglian dialects when the Scandinavians arrived,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">whereas further south the Saxon/Jutish varieties had already mutated. So
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">the Norse effect was as much a reinforcement as an introduction.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_theohoman@yahoo.com" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Theo Homan <<a href="mailto:theohoman@yahoo.com">theohoman@yahoo.com</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.10.22 (03) [D/E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Roland Desnerck</span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
< <a href="mailto:desnerck.roland@skynet.be" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">desnerck.roland@skynet.be</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.10.21 (02) [E] </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">[...]<br></div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<font size="2">Anderzijds
naar aanleiding van burh, by, enz... :ik dacht dat de Scandinavische
"by" (stad), "landsby" (dorp) verwant zijn met "bo" (wonen), met het
Nederlands "bouwen"</font></div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">en
misschien nog verder (?) met (to) be, ben, bios, enz. Misschien kan
iemand van onze medetaallustigen hier verheldering brengen.</font></div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Toetnoasteki,</font></div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif;"><font size="2"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Roland Desnerck</span><br></font></div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif;"><font size="2"><br><font style="font-family: times new roman,serif;" size="2">Roland,</font></font></div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new roman,serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new roman,serif;"><font size="2">Het enthousiasme kent bij jou weer geen grenzen.</font></div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new roman,serif;">Ik weet
dat 'boer' enz. ooit wel in verband zijn gebracht met 'ben' [van het
werkwoord zijn], maar deze persoon weet toch niet wat hij daarvan moet
denken. </div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new roman,serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new roman,serif;">'Ben' is wel leuk; want ons werkwoordparadigma 'zijn' bestaat uit meerdere stammen: </div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new roman,serif;">'zijn'
[hierbij: is]; 'wezen' [hierbij: waren]; 'ben' en dit hoort in de
stamfamilie van ondermeer het latijnse fui [ perfectum bij: esse].</div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new roman,serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new roman,serif;">Ik hoop altijd van dialecten te horen waar ook van nog andere stammen gebruikt worden gemaakt.</div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new roman,serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new roman,serif;"><a href="http://vr.gr/" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">vr.gr</a>.</div><span style="font-family: times new roman,serif;" class="sg">
<div style="font-size: 12pt;">Theo Homan</div></span></span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: Etymology</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Hi, Sandy! You wrote:<br><br></span><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">I don't think this sort of thing is normally written with the
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">apostrophe, however. Certainly, "Bishops Caundle", near where I live,</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
wouldn't be.</span><br></div>
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">I limited the examples to names that in the </span><span style="text-decoration: underline; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">official spelling</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
do have an apostrophe in it. There were those that in the official
spelling did not have one, and I omitted those. I looked them up in government lists.<br><br>As for the Caundle, see here as well: <br><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop%27s_Caundle">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop%27s_Caundle
</a><br><a href="http://www.imagesofdorset.org.uk/Dorset/031/intro.htm">http://www.imagesofdorset.org.uk/Dorset/031/intro.htm</a><br><a href="http://www.city-visitor.com/bishopscaundle/index.html">http://www.city-visitor.com/bishopscaundle/index.html
</a><br><a href="http://www.dorsetforyou.com/index.jsp?articleid=359905">http://www.dorsetforyou.com/index.jsp?articleid=359905</a><br><br>What people do in real
life is another thing, of course.<br><br></span><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 102);">What about "Lands End"! The exception that tests the rule?</span>
<br></div>
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Actually, it's officially spelled "Land's End" (Cornish </span><i style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Penn an Wlas
</i><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">), though many people spell it without the apostrophe.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
E.g.,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><a href="http://www.cornwalltour.co.uk/landsend.html">http://www.cornwalltour.co.uk/landsend.html</a></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><a href="http://www.cornwall-online.co.uk/attractions/lands-end/Welcome.html">http://www.cornwall-online.co.uk/attractions/lands-end/Welcome.html</a></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><a href="http://www.landsend-landmark.co.uk/">http://www.landsend-landmark.co.uk/</a></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<a href="http://www.britainexpress.com/counties/cornwall/az/lands-end.htm">http://www.britainexpress.com/counties/cornwall/az/lands-end.htm</a></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<a href="http://www.islesofscilly-travel.co.uk/leq/index.htm">http://www.islesofscilly-travel.co.uk/leq/index.htm</a></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Theo over Roland:</span><br><br><div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new roman,serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 102); margin-left: 40px;"><font size="2">Het enthousiasme kent bij jou weer geen grenzen.</font></div>
<br><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Ja, en daarom houden de Grote Kahoena en ik bijzonders van hem. Ontmoedig onze Roland niet! Anders zal ik dicht bij de grens een vroeg, heel groot Paasvuur bestellen.</span>
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: times new roman,serif;">
<br style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"><br>
•
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