<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 24 October 2007 - Volume 01</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Song Contest: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/contest/">lowlands-l.net/contest/</a> (- 31 Dec. 2007)</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
=========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <
<a href="mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL">ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Phonology"
2007.10.23 (07) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Thanks, Mark</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Interessant, baie interessant! This unrounding tendency of Afrikaans does</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">not at all take place in Dutch. That is, it did in the past in Dutch
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">spoken by people from our former colonies, like Indonesia, Ceylon,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Suriname, the Antilles and... the Cape. I suppose this popular</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">pronunciation has been there from the beginning in Afrikaans, but the
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Standard prono from Dutch and the spelling withheld it until recently.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">I understand that Afr ui > y, uu > ie etc, but what exactly is the</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">difference between i and u in pit vs put, kul vs kil etc? In my ears, Afr
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">short i sounds more like Dutch short u [2], than like Dutch short i [e].</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
So in that case, no unrounding but rounding?</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Btw, I was not talking about this in my message, but about Dutch ui => uu,
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">and ij = y in some Afrikaans varieties, so one with and one without</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
diphthonguizing. Are you familiar with that phenomenon?</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Hartelijke groeten,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Ingmar Gerrit Roerdinkholder</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Mark Dreyer het geskryf
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">I(ngmar):</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">"If I remember correctly, Older Afrikaans and / or certain "coloured"</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
varieties of Afrikaans show something similar to Scots in having</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">diphthonguized î, but unchanged û: 'y' as in St Afr 'y' / Dutch 'ij' in
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">words like 'ys', but 'uu' for St Afr/Dutch 'ui' in words like 'huus',</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">not 'huis'. But I'm sure our SA members can tell us more about this."</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Mark:</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Yes, we call it afronding - the shape we put our lips in to articulate the
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">'U' the 'UU' 'UI' etc. My wife, who notwithstanding being Californian can</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">ordinarily handle the most arcane vowel-sounds, finds this too much, so I</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">suppose its too much to expect it of everyone.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">In my youth people going for auditions in the Afrikaans service of the S A</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Broadcasting Corporation esed to test people for their ability to pronounce</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">them, & if you couldn't you didn't get the job. that was until about the
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">early eighties, but after that they took a slacker line, which I take is a</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
pretty clear indication of the direction the Taal itself is taking.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">I for my part see the merits of afronding. Slipping into the alternave
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">makes</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">for far too many homophones for my comfort:
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Luis = louse - lys = list</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Huis = house - hys = to winch
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Put = waterhole - pit = pip</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Vuur = fire - vier = four
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Kul = bamboozle - kil = frigid</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">& so on.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">To accomodate the need for lucidity would bring into being other necessary</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">changes in Afrikaans, & as I have read, initial changes in a language are</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">not invariably good for the language. After all, language is for
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">communication, not so?</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Yrs,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Mark</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_ezinsser@icon.co.za" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Maria Elsie Zinsser</span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg"> <<a href="mailto:ezinsser@icon.co.za">ezinsser@icon.co.za</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2007.10.23 (01) [E/Z]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" id="mb_0">
<font size="2">Hi all, <br><br>Ingmar wrote: ...Older Afrikaans and / or certain "coloured"<br>varieties of Afrikaans show something similar to Scots in having<br>diphthonguized î, but unchanged û: 'y' as in St Afr 'y' / Dutch 'ij' in
<br>words like 'ys', but 'uu' for St Afr/Dutch 'ui' in words like 'huus',<br></font><font size="2">not 'huis'. But I'm sure our SA members can tell us more about this.<br><br>The change from huis > hys, luis>lys relate to 'ontronding' and it's
<br>a dialectical characteristic of many Western Cape Afrikaans speakers<br> of all races. <br><br>I have to look up about the process of ijs in Dutch becoming ys in <br>Afrikaans.<br><span class="sg"> <br>Elsie Zinsser</span>
<br><br>----------<br><br></font>From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>Subject: Phonology<br><br>Elsie,
<br><br>I've always assumed that what is now written <span style="font-style: italic;">ij</span> and previously also <span style="font-style: italic;">ÿ</span> and <span style="font-style: italic;">y </span>in Dutch was at the developmental stage of having shifted from [i:] to [ǝı] ([@I]) at the time of the early Cape settlement and for some time thereafter, that Afrikaans just stuck to it.
<br><br>Not?<br><br>Groete!<br>Reinhard/Ron<br>
</div><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">