<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 25 October 2007 - Volume 03<br>Song Contest: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/contest/">lowlands-l.net/contest/</a> (- 31 Dec. 2007)<br>=========================================================================
<br><br>From: <span id="_user_desnerck.roland@skynet.be" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Roland Desnerck</span><span style="font-weight: normal;" class="lg"> <<a href="mailto:desnerck.roland@skynet.be">desnerck.roland@skynet.be
</a>></span><br>Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.10.24 (06) [E]<br><br><div><font face="Arial" size="2">Hi Lowlanders,</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Dutch heeft "woonplaats" voor Siedlung,
settlement.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Welnu, er is een verschil tussen "woonplaats" en
"nederzetting". Een "nederzetting": men heeft er zich gevestigd, men ziet er als
het ware een begin aan; bij "woonplaats" heb je dit niet. Bij nederzetting denkt
men dat er nog geen woonplaatsen aanwezig waren. Ooit hebben de Saksen zich op
onze kusten gevestigd, ze stichtten er nederzettingen, ze vonden er een
woonplaats.Het zijn dus Joodse nederzettingen op de Westelijke Jordaanoever, die
werden dan hun woonplaats. BTW: "zich vestigen" is dus een geschikte woonplaats
gezocht en gevonden hebben. "Vestigen" komt uit "vast".</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">"Siedlung" en "nederzetting"e leunen dus bij elkaar
aan. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Toetnoasteki.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Roland Desnerck</font></div><br>----------<br><br>From: <span id="_user_leybl_goldberg@yahoo.com" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Lee Goldberg <<a href="mailto:leybl_goldberg@yahoo.com">
leybl_goldberg@yahoo.com</a>></span><span style="font-weight: normal;" class="lg"></span><br>Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.10.24 (09) [E/LS]<br>
<br>On the suggestion to apply the term 'Jewish villages' (dorpen) to
Israeli settlements on the occupied West Bank, am I the only one who
feels that "villages" designate rural communities (traditional peasant
societies living on agriculture) and "towns" designate urban ones
(living from trade and industry)? Maybe it's the economist in me, but
I always cringe when American Jews translate "shtetl" (a diminutive of
"shtot", 'city') as "village". And maybe it's the lingering
feeling that my ancestors were so culturally, linguistically, and even
physically ("racially") different from their non-Jewish neighbors in
the "dorf" (a term also synonymous with 'countryside')?<br><br>----------<br><br><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <
<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>Subject: Lexicon<br><br>Hi to my buddies Lee and Roland, and hi to all!<br><br>You're making good points, guys. But we must bear in mind that words have a way of
</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">semantically</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> spreading </span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">or </span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
veering off.<br><br>"Village" and <span style="font-style: italic;">Dorf</span>, for instance, yes, started off within a definite rural context, but I feel that there are now differences in the way they are used. "Children's village" and its German equivalent
<span style="font-style: italic;">Kinderdorf</span>, for instance, do not necessarily come with rural connotations. If I understand them correctly, they denote places at which children stay temporarily. In theory, at least, these could be anywhere, even inside cities. I would go as far as saying that they are the positive equivalent of "camp" and the now shudder-ridden
<span style="font-style: italic;">Lager</span>.<br><br>I absolutely agree that Yiddish שטעטל <span style="font-style: italic;">shtetl</span> ought not be translated as "village," Lee. I have even heard people translate it as "ghetto," which definitely is
<span style="font-style: italic;">not</span> the same. "Town" might be closest. "Community" doesn't sound right either, because it can easily overlap with "congregation" in this context, which would be closest to Yiddish קהילה
<span style="font-style: italic;">kehile</span>. This is why I favor using <span style="font-style: italic;">shtetl </span>as a loanword</span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> (which it is, even listed as such in the
<span style="font-style: italic;">Oxford English Dictionary</span>).</span><br><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br>But then again, we get differences in what "town" means in different English dialects. In American English it tends to include what in Europe is "village" (even places with only a handful of houses), and Americas tend to use the word "village" only in "Old World" contexts (
e.g., "quaint English village," "Bavarian village dance"). But if you say "town" in Europe, people think of smaller cities or, in the American context, larger towns. (American "town" might be closest in meaning to German
<span style="font-style: italic;">Ort</span> or <span style="font-style: italic;">Ortschaft</span>.) </span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br>
<br>
Of course, <span style="font-style: italic;">kolonie</span> is
convenient in many contexts. However, this word and its equivalents
come politically laden and in many cases denote the occupation or take-over of
entire regions, not just small communities. At one time you
might have gotten away with calling an East European <span style="font-style: italic;">shtetl</span> a "Jewish<span style="font-style: italic;"> </span>colony"
(in analogy to Mennonite "colonies" in the same region), because you
are dealing with minority groups, thus not with a take-over but simply with (new) settlements. But using this expression in a Middle
Eastern context would be a totally different matter because Israel is a power.</span><br><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br>Roland, thanks for pointing out what I understand is the difference between Dutch
<span style="font-style: italic;">woonplaats</span> and Dutch <span style="font-style: italic;">nederzetting</span>: their connotations being "well-established" v "new" respectively. A <span style="font-style: italic;">
nederzetting</span> may eventually become a <span style="font-style: italic;">woonplaats</span>, such as in your example of Saxon <span style="font-style: italic;">nederzettingen</span> on Flanders' coast that later became
<span style="font-style: italic;">woonplaatsen</span>. This is why, in the apparent absence of a convenient equivalent of <span style="font-style: italic;">nederzetting</span> in Low Saxon I suggested optionally using clarifying
<span style="font-style: italic;">ney</span> (<span style="font-style: italic;">nee</span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">nie(g)</span>) 'new' (<span style="font-style: italic;">(nee) Wahnsteed'</span>) for 'settlement'.
<br><br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br></span>
<br>