=======================================================================
<p>
L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
<p>
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list@gmail.com
<p>
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php
<p>
Posting: lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list@gmail.com
<p>
Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv@listserv.net
<p>
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
<p>
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
<p>
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
<p>
Administration: lowlands.list@gmail.com or sassisch@yahoo.com
<p>
<p>
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
<p>
<p>
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
<p>
=======================================================================
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 03 December 2007 - Volume 05
</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Song Contest: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/contest/">lowlands-l.net/contest/</a> (- 31 Dec. 2007)</span>
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <<a href="mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL">ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL
</a>> </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2007.12.03 (03) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Is it possible that G or GI before E meant [j] here, and that Gievenstede</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">was the spelling for the name pronounced as Jevenstede?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">And isn't it likely that Old Saxon G was not [g] but fricative [G] or a</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
palatal [G'], as in Dutch, including all Dutch dialects and all Low Saxon</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">in the Netherlands, Belgium and many of its border regions in Germany?
</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">My theory is that J developed from [G'], not [g], directly, maybe because</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">this [G] / [G'] had become too hard for German Low Saxon/Low Franconian</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
speakers? Ingmar</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
From: Helge Tietz <</span><a style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" href="mailto:helgetietz@yahoo.com">helgetietz@yahoo.com</a><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2007.12.01 (01) [E]</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Dear Lowlanders,</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Concerning the g/j pronunciation in Eastern Low Saxon dialects such as</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Brandenburgian (formerly also Pomeranian and East Prussian) I want to add</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">that J-pronunciation of an apparant G was also commonplace in Holsten. The
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">village of Jevenstedt was called Gievenstede in 1190 but became Jevenstedt</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
later due to the local pronunciation. The same happened to Jahrsdoerp (HG:</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Jahrsdorf) just south of Wistedh (Hohenwestedt) which in 1149 was recorded
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">as Geresthorp. So pronouncing the G in the way it is currently done in</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Northalbian Low Saxon might be a more recent development while the J</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">pronunciation actually an archaic one. As such the Eastern Low-Saxon</span>
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">dialects might simply have retained an archaic pronunciation on colonial</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
ground similar to American English retaining post-vocalic R pronunciation</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">in</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
contrast to (Southern-)British English.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Regards,</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Helge</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">----------</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Subject: Phonology</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Hi, Helge! Great to hear from you, as always.</span>
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">You may have a point there, which may or may not contradict the theory of</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Low Franconian influence in the east. As far as I know, the area we talked</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">about earlier is not contiguous with Holstein. At least I'm not aware
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">of /g/</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">[j] in Mecklenburg dialects.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">However, it would also be consistent with my proposal of Slavonic</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">substrates. After all, much of Eastern Holstein, including the island of
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Fehmarn) used to be Polabian-speaking (and there used to be</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Polabian-speaking villages even in Denmark (Island of Funen/Fyn?).
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">See the dark purple areas marking the Polabian area along the western part</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">of the Baltic Sea coast on the following map:</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><a style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Central_Europe%2C_919-1125.jpg" target="_blank">
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Central_Europe%2C_919-1125.jpg</a><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> . Click</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">on</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">the map, and on the new page click on it again for an enlargement.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Unfortunately, the map does not indicate Polabian presence farther south,
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">in</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">the Draween area on the Lunenburg Heath.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">I don't find any indication that there was g ~ y alternation in Old Saxon,</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
which doesn't mean that there couldn't have been such in some dialects.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Regards,</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Reinhard/Ron</span><br></div>
•
<p>
==============================END===================================
<p>
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org.
<p>
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
<p>
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
<p>
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")
<p>
are to be sent to listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org or at
<p>
http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
<p>
*********************************************************************