<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 01 January 2008 - Volume 09
</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(204, 0, 96);">
Mark Dreyer</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:mrdreyer@lantic.net">mrdreyer@lantic.net</a>></span></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.04 (03) [E]<br><br></span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Beste Elllsie:</span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);"></span> <br>Subject: LL-L
"Etymology"</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Wat van bv 'Sakelui' = 'business-people'?</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">(Kritzinger Labuschagne en Pienaar, Die Verklarende Afrikaanse
Woordeboek: van Schaik 1972.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><b>lui</b>, (s, mv), liede, mense:</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">en</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><b>lui</b>, as postmorfeem gebruik
vir die meervoudsvorm van <b>man</b> bv, <b>seelui</b>,
<b>timmerlui</b> ens.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Askies vir my jammerlike stilte die laaste
tyd.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Die Uwe,</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Mark</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">It fascinates me that Afrikaans does not
seem to have a cognate of </span></font></span><span><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">the
</span></font></span><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Indo-European: </span></b>*<i><span style="font-style: italic;">leudh-</span></i> 'to go freely', 'to grow'<i><span style="font-style: italic;">* > *leudho
</span></i>'people'.</div>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Are A.
lid / lede (member/s) perhaps related?</span></font></div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>----------<br><br>From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">
Paul Finlow-Bates</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.04 (03) [E]<br></span><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<div class="Ih2E3d">From: R. F. Hahn < <a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><span></span> <br></div>Subject: Etymology<br><div class="Ih2E3d"><br>By the way, for some strange reason the cognate word for "people" (Old English
<i>léode</i>, Old Northumbrian </div><i>líoda</i>)
seems to have disappeared from English and Scots also. In English, it
disappeared at the end of the Middle English period ( e.g., <i>Fra hys kyn till ane wncouth <u>lede</u></i>, Wintoun Chronicles, 1425). In Scots it held on to the early modern stage (e.g., <i>For thai me hayt mar na
Sotheroun <u>leid</u></i>, Henry Wallace, 1714).<br><br>Regards, <br>Reinhard/Ron<br></blockquote> <div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I
guess we had (and retained) "folc" in various forms, and borrowed the
French "people" as a synonym. Maybe "lede" just got redundant? I
don't know if Norse had any "lede"-like word, but they did have "folk";
if English settles on a Germanic word it is often an Old English one
reinforced by Norse. For example we use "tree" rather than "beam"
because ON and OE had a version of the former. Beam now only survives
as a special meaning, and in tree names like Hornbeam.</div><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888"> <div> </div> <div>Paul Finlow-Bates</div></font> <div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br>----------<br><br>From: <span class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(200, 137, 0);">Marcel Bas</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:roepstem@hotmail.com">roepstem@hotmail.com</a>></span></span>
<br>
Subject: <span class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.04 (03) [E]<br><br></span><font color="#000000" size="3">Hi Elsie,</font><br>
<br>
<font color="#000000" size="3">You wondered:</font><div class="Ih2E3d"><br><blockquote><span><font color="black" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;">Hi all,</span></font></span>
<p><span><font color="black" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;">It fascinates me that Afrikaans does not seem to have a cognate of </span></font></span></p>
<p><span><font color="black" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;">the </span></font></span><b><font color="black"><span style="font-weight: bold; color: black;">Indo-European: </span></font></b><font color="black">
<span style="color: black;">*<i><span style="font-style: italic;">leudh-</span></i> 'to go freely', 'to grow'<i><span style="font-style: italic;">* > *leudho </span></i>'people'.</span></font></p>
<p><font color="black" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;">Are A. lid / lede (member/s) perhaps related?</span></font></p>
</blockquote></div>
<font color="#000000" size="3">Lid/lede is not related (this goes back to IE *<i>elei </i>'to bend'). There are some cognates of *<i>leudh- </i>in Afrikaans, though. </font><br>
<br>
<font color="#000000" size="3"> - <i>julle </i>'second person plural' < <i>je + lie(-den). </i>The shift from <i>luuden</i> to <i>lieden</i> is considered Flemish. So Afrikaans 'julle' and Dutch 'jullie' means 'you people'.
</font><br>
<br>
<font color="#000000" size="3">- <i>hulle</i> 3rd person plural = <i>hun +lie(den</i>)<i>. </i>So Afrikaans 'hulle' and dialectic Dutch 'hulle'<i> </i>means 'them people'.</font><br>
<br>
<font color="#000000" size="3">- <i>luier</i> 'diaper' (but Afrikaans speakers usually refer to 'diapers' as 'doeke'). Some etymologists think that '<i>luier</i> ' derives from this same root *
<i>leudh-</i>, particularly when it means 'to grow'. So the baby grows inside the diaper.</font><br>
<br>
<font color="#000000" size="3">Best regards,</font><br>
<br>
<font color="#000000" size="3">Marcel.</font><br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------<br><br>From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">
<span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Diederik Masure</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:didimasure@hotmail.com">didimasure@hotmail.com</a>></span></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.04 (03) [E]<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Lid/lede(n) is not related. I am not sure if it is related to English lid? Or Norwegian led(d)... </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Apart
from lui, Dutch also knows (orig. Southern forms) with -ie-, in
standard language however generally 'lieden' is higher and lui is
slightly more vulgar. </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I'm not sure if lieden/lui is still used
over here, apart from the plural pers. pronouns (wijlie, gijlie, zullie
etc). In Holland (excuse me, the Netherlands) 'lui' for 'mensen' seems
to be quite popular though, at least in more oral forms of the
language. (or in diminutive luitjes). </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Professions ending in
-man take (officially) plurals in -lui or -lieden. 1 koopman, meerdere
kooplieden (/kooplui), brandweerman, brandweerlieden/lui. </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">To me it
doesn't sound strange saying "timmermannen" or "brandweermannen"
though. But you're not allowed to write it anyway:) [and usually the
latter are called "pompiers" [pOm'pI.jrs] in these districts anyway]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
And I just noticed that apparently Dutch is the only
Germanic/W.European language that does not use the latin word "muscle"
but "spier". Anyone knows other Germanic languages that use a more
"original" word? </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Diederik</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">
sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: Etymology<br><br>
By the way, this sg. <i>-man</i> -> pl. <i>-luyd'</i> system seems to be common to the "Low German" group (Low Franconian and Low Saxon); e.g., Low Saxon <i>timmerman</i> -> <i>timmerluyd'</i> (<i>
Timmermann </i>-> <i>Timmerlüüd</i>') 'capenter(s)', <i>varensman</i> -> <i>varensluyd'</i> (<i>Fahrensmann</i> -> <i>Fahrenslüüd'</i>) 'seafarer(s)', <i>koupman</i> -> <i>koupluyd'
</i> (<i>Koopmann</i> -> <i>Kooplüüd'</i>) 'merchant(s)'.<br><br>And then it's the common, albeit not only, plural marker in the following cases: <i>man</i> -> <i>mans</i> ~ <i>mansluyd'</i> (<i>
Mann</i> -> <i>Manns</i> ~ <i>Mannslüüd'</i>) 'man/men', <i>vrou</i> ~ <i>vru</i> -> <i>vroun</i> ~ <i>vruun</i> ~ <i>vrouns ~ vruuns </i>~ <i>vrounslüüd'</i> ~ <i>vruunslüüd'</i> (<i>Fro ~ Fru -> Froon ~ Fruun ~ Froons ~ Fruuns ~ Frounslüüd' ~ Fruunslüüd'
</i>) 'woman/women'. So one of the choices is like English "menfolk" and "womenfolk" respectively.<br><br>How about Frisian and Limburgish, and is it native if it does exist there?<br><br>Regards,
<br>Reinhard/Ron<br><br></span>