<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 05 January 2008 - Volume 05
</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From:</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">
Ed Alexander</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:edsells@cogeco.ca">edsells@cogeco.ca</a>></span></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.05 (01) [E]<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
At 10:49 AM 05/01/2008 -0800, Paul wrote:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<blockquote style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" type="cite">I guess we had (and retained) "folc" in various forms, and
borrowed the French "people" as a synonym. Maybe
"lede" just got redundant? I don't know if Norse had any
"lede"-like word, but they did have "folk"; if
English settles on a Germanic word it is often an Old English one
reinforced by Norse. For example we use "tree" rather
than "beam" because ON and OE had a version of the
former. Beam now only survives as a special meaning, and in tree
names like Hornbeam.</blockquote><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Or like NL </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Boom</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">. </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888">
<br>
Ed Alexander<br><br>----------<br><br></font><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From:</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">
Marcel Bas</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:marcelbas@gmail.com">marcelbas@gmail.com</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.05 (03) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">
<br></span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" id="1feh" class="ArwC7c ckChnd"><div>
<div>Hi everyone,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Kevin Caldwell asked:</div><div class="Ih2E3d">
<div> </div>
<div style="margin-left: 40px;"><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">>Based
on the following and the discussion which has ensued, I'm now wondering
if the French >pronoun "lui" is also related to this root.
</span></font></div>
<div><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;"></span></font> </div></div>
<div>I don't think so. <i>lui</i> comes from a Vulgar Latin word <i>*illui</i>, which is a dative form of *<i>illi </i>(he).</div>
<div>Both words are typical Latin personal pronouns, which can be found in French <i>eux</i>, <i>leur</i> and <i>elle</i>, but also in <i>oui (< *hoc illi</i>) and the definite article <i>le</i> (< <i>illum, illas
</i>, etc.)</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Etymologists do think that *<i>leudh-</i> led to the Latin word <i>liber</i> 'free'. So this would give French <i>libre</i>, etc. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best regards,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Marcel. <br>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -<br><br>De Roepstem - Die Roepstem<br><br><a href="http://roepstem.net/" target="_blank">http://roepstem.net</a><br><br>Nederland - België - Luxemburg - Suid-Afrika
</div>
</div>
</div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><br>----------<br>
</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">
sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">> </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: Etymology</span>
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Thanks for the contributions in the thread!</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">This ought to be a crossover to "Grammar" perhaps ...</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">As has been mentioned, Dutch </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">jullie</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
'you' (plural), Afrikaans </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">julle</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> 'you' (plural), and Afrikaans </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
hulle</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> 'they' incorporated by way of suffixing a noun for 'people' (</span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">lied</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
, </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">lui</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">).</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">This reminds us once again that the introduction of politeness -- which more often than not is the result of "cultured" foreign influence -- is likely to alters ("destroys") the symmetrical structure of native systems, especially pronominal systems. What happened in Dutch and Afrikaans is also something that has happened in English and Scots. In Low Saxon it has happened under Dutch influence on Netherlands soil, while in Germany it began later under German influence, is still not happening in many dialects and is still perceived as foreign (
</span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">geel</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> 'yellow' = German-style) by many speakers.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Traditional Modern Low Saxon | Old Saxon | Old English | Modern English:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Singular</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> 1. ik | ik | ic | I</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> 2. du | thū | þū (obj. þē) | (thou ~) </span><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">you</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> 3. masc. hey | hē | hē | he</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> fem. sey | hē | heo | she
</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> neut. it ~ et ~ dat | it | hit | it</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Dual</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> 1. -- | wit | wit | --</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
2. -- | git | git | --</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Plural</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
1. wy | wī | wē | we</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
2. jy | gī | gē (obj. </span><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">eouw</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">) | </span><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
you</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
3. sey | sia | hie | they</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">In Modern English, the original objective case of the second person plural form has become the general nominative second person pronoun. This is because this plural form came to be used as a polite pronoun and eventually made the familiar pronoun redundant. As a result, there is no longer a distinction both between familiar and polite and between singular and plural.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Old Low Franconian | Modern Dutch | Afrikaans</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Singular</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> 1. ik | ik | ek</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> 2. thū | </span><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">jij<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">, <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">
gij</span></span></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> | </span><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">jy</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> 3. masc. hē | hij | hy</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> fem. hē | zij | sy</span>
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> neut. hē | het | </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Plural</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> 1. wī (obj. </span><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
uns</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">) | wij (obj. </span><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">ons</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
) | </span><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">ons</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> 2. fam. </span>
<span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">g</span></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">ī</span><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span> </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">| </span><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">ju<u>llie</u><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
~ gij</span> </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">| </span><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">ju<u>lle</u></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> pol. </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">g</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">ī | </span>
<span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">gij</span> ~ <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">u</span> | <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">
u</span> </span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> 3. hē | zij | </span><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
hu<u>lle</u><br><br><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">In Dutch and Afrikaans, introduction of a polite level caused similar shifts, and the word for "people", "folk" (<i>lied</i>, <i>lui</i>) came to mark the familiar forms and was extended to the equivalent of "they".
<br><br>What about <i>u</i>?<br><br>In Neerlandized Low Saxon, does <i>oe</i> ([u(:)]) for the second person singular and plural come from the same source as Dutch <i>u</i>, or is there a link with old </span></span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
thū</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>In older Germanized Low Saxon, the second person plural pronoun became the polite second person singular pronoun.<br><br>Older German | Older Germanized Low Saxon<br>Singular<br> 1. ich | ik <br> 2. pejorative masc.
</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">er </span>| <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">hey<br><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> pejorative fem. </span>sie<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
| </span>sey<br></span></span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> fam. du | du<br> pol. <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">Ihr</span> | <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">Jy</span><br> 3. masc. er | hey
<br> fem. sie | sey<br> neut. es | it ~ et ~ dat<br>Plural<br> 1. wir | wy<br> 2. pejorative: </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);"><font color="#000000"><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">
sie</span> | <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">sey</span></font></span></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
fam. <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">ihr</span> | <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">jy</span><br> pol. </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">Ihr</span> | <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">
Jy<br><font color="#000000"> 3. <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">sie</span> | <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">sey</span></font></span></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br> In today's Germanized Low Saxon, the third person plural pronoun serves as the polite second person pronoun, as in German.</span><br><br><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">German | Germanized Low Saxon
<br>
Singular<br>
1. ich | ik<br>
2. fam. du | du<br>
pol. <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">Sie</span> | <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">Sey</span><br>
3. masc. er | hey<br>
fem. sie | sey<br>
neut. es | it ~ et ~ dat<br>
Plural<br>
1. wir | wy<br>
2. fam. <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">ihr | jy</span><br>
pol. </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">Sie</span> | <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">Sey<br>
<font color="#000000"> 3. <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">sie</span> | <span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">sey<br><br><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Interestingly, the older plural pejorative ("talking down")
</span></span></font></span></span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);"><font color="#000000"><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> pronoun is now the polite one! For instance, in the 18th and earlier 19th centuries, a landlord or nobleman might address several lower-class people with the equivalent of "they" (
e.g., "Have they (= you) accomplished today's chores?"). If addressing one or more people nowadays, this would be polite!<br><br>The Dutch and Afrikaans suffixing of a word for "people" seems to be being "reenacted" these days in American English, where the use of an older polite form did away with the distinction between singular and plural, and the plural is now being restored by the addition of "guys" to "you." If this becomes formalized, English may end up with "you" for the singular and with something like *"youguys" for the plural.
<br><br>Similar processes can be observed in many of the world's languages: the introduction of social distinction "upsets" the system, and the system has to restore and reinvent itself. A typical case is that of the Turkic group of Altaic where in the varieties of Islamicized Turkic communities Persian influences did similar things, some of them leading to very complex processes. This contrasts with the varieties of non-Islamic Turkic-speaking communities, most of which live in Siberia.
<br><br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br><br><br></span></span></font></span></span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);"><font color="#000000"><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
</span><br></span></font></span></span></span>