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<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 06 January 2008 - Volume 02
</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">
Marcel Bas</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:roepstem@hotmail.com">roepstem@hotmail.com</a>></span></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.05 (06) [E]<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Hi Reinhard,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">You wondered:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="Ih2E3d"><blockquote dir="ltr" style="margin-right: 0px;">
I know that not
too long ago especially older Americans greatly disliked "you guys"
(and in some varieties even genitive "you guyses"!), found it
disrespectful, especially coming from younger people addressing them.
However, not only does it seem to be more acceptable now but I hear
more and more seniors use it themselves. Might "you guys" make it
eventually, and might it be passed on to other varieties of English? <br></blockquote>I have heard it in South Africa, from a native English
speaking girl. "What did you guys do today?", she asked my friend and
me. This was in Port Elizabeth, 1996.</div>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" dir="ltr">I once heard a calque from "you people" in the language of
an Afrikaans speaker. He told my friend and me: "Julle mense brand die
panne." It wasn't me, who had done the cooking, though!</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" dir="ltr">"Julle mense" to me sounds like an intrusive English-based
tautology. "Julle" already indicates plural, so why add "mense" (=
people)? Like "you people" "julle mense" doesn't sound friendly, either.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" dir="ltr">Best regards,</p><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888">
<p dir="ltr">Marcel. <br></p></font><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Paul Finlow-Bates</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">
wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject:
</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.05 (06) [E]<br><br></span><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank"> sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">> </span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Subject: Etymology</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> </span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Lowlanders,</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">On the topic of pronominal repluralization.......</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">......Of course, this need for repluralization is not new, at least not in American English. ....
</span><br></div> <br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Regards,</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Reinhard/Ron</span><br></div> <br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">** But
is there really a "need"? The fact that English lost distinctions
between singular/ plural, and polite/familiar in the second person
suggests it couldn't be that important - or we'd have kept it!</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
As
an analogy, no Indo-European language I know of has a distinction
between "inclusive" and "exclusive" for 1st P. plural: "We have to go
now" could refer to "All of us here" or "me, and him, and her, but not
you". In many Pacific languages, including Tok Pisin, this distinction
is a grammatical essential:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">"Yumi" or "Yumiolgeta" = "All of us"</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">"Mipela" = "Us, but not you"</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Speakers of such languages couldn't think in any other terms, yet most Europeans aren't even concious of the distinction.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">We
know what we mean by context; if we need to to single one person out
when talking to a group, we identify them: "You'll have to practice
harder" (to the group), "and you, Sally, need to work especially hard".</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888"><br>
Paul Finlow-Bates</font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><br></span>
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">
sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">> </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Subject: Etymology</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Thanks, you guys ;-) !</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Paul, I didn't try to claim that there </span><b style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">is</b><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
is need. The point I was really trying to make was that in some quarters the need appears to be felt </span><b style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">now</b><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
and has been for a while. Since currently this repluralization is gaining ground in more prestigious (though casual) dialects of American English and seems to be increasingly acceptable in the influential American media, I was postulating that there is a chance of it spreading to English in general. Whether or not everyone initially likes this is another matter.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Yes, on the other hand, many things fall by the wayside, such as dual forms which in Indo-European are now only found in a few languages (such as in Sorbian among the Slavic languages).
</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I am not aware of inclusive versus exclusive "we" ever having been attested in Indo-European other than in contact languages in which the substratum languages came with it (such as in Tok Pisin and in Bislama). It is widespread in other language families and groups such as in some Caucasian languages (especially Chechen), Austronesian languages, Native American languages and Dravidian languages.
</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">However, I wonder if, as cultures and social structures change (and everything inevitably does change) a possible (re-)emerging need for such distinctions may lead to the (re-)introduction of grammatical distinctions that are not there at present. We talk a lot about discarding grammatical "fluff," but I feel we mustn't discount the possibility of (re-)introducing it. Quite obviously, in some English varieties a need for pluralizing "you" has been reality (
e.g., "yous," "y'all", "you guys"). If you and I agree with it is besides the point. <br><br>And if you ask if it's <i>really</i> needed, well, let me mention that I have been in situations in which the lack of number clarification of "you" was a detriment and led to misunderstandings. I hardly think that all of these situations were due to my personal bias (having grown up with languages in which the distinction exists), because they involved such confusion among monolingual English speakers.
<br></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
•
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