<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 07 January 2008 - Volume 05
</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">
Henno Brandsma</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:hennobrandsma@hetnet.nl">hennobrandsma@hetnet.nl</a>></span></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.07 (02) [E]<br><br></span><div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
From: Elsie Zinsser <span><<a href="mailto:ezinsser@icon.co.za" target="_blank">ezinsser@icon.co.za</a>></span> <br> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.04 (06) [E]<br></div> <p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<span><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Hi all,</span></font></span></p><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">
Thanks, Diederik, Marcel and Mark for the Afrikaans words relating to </span></font></span><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Indo-European:</span></b></p><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<b><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-weight: bold;"><span> </span></span></font></b> *<i><span style="font-style: italic;">leudh-</span></i> 'to go freely', 'to grow'<i><span style="font-style: italic;">
* > *leudho </span></i>'people'.</p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 12pt; margin-left: 47.76pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">
>And
I just noticed that apparently Dutch is the only Germanic/W.European
language that does not use the latin word "muscle" but "spier". Anyone
knows other Germanic languages that use a more "original" word?</span></font></p><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="Ih2E3d">Well, Westerlauwer Frisian has "spier" as well. This is as expeced (old Germanic i: is preserved, in Dutch before -r as well).
<br><blockquote type="cite"><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 12pt; margin-left: 18pt;"><font color="black" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;"> </span></font></p><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt; margin-left: 40px;">
<font color="black" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">I would think 'bil' is quite an interesting meaning of muscle too besides 'spier'?</span><br></span>
</font></p></blockquote></div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">bil in WF is what corresponds to "dij" (thigh) in Dutch. It is neiter as well (it bil), where Dutch has "de bil" [buttocks].
</div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Groete,</div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Henno<br><br>----------<br><br>From: <span class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Henno Brandsma</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:hennobrandsma@hetnet.nl">hennobrandsma@hetnet.nl
</a>></span></span> <br>Subject: <span class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.05 (05) [E]</span><span class="HcCDpe"><br><br>
</span><div style="margin-left: 40px;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank"> sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
> </span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Subject: Etymology</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> </span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Thanks for the contributions in the thread!</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">This ought to be a crossover to "Grammar" perhaps ...
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">As has been mentioned, Dutch </span><i style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">jullie</i><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
'you' (plural), Afrikaans </span><i style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">julle</i><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> 'you' (plural), and Afrikaans </span><i style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> hulle</i><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
'they' incorporated by way of suffixing a noun for 'people' (</span><i style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">lied</i><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> , </span><i style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">lui</i><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
).</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">This
reminds us once again that the introduction of politeness -- which more
often than not is the result of "cultured" foreign influence -- is
likely to alters ("destroys") the symmetrical structure of native
systems, especially pronominal systems. What happened in Dutch and
Afrikaans is also something that has happened in English and Scots. In
Low Saxon it has happened under Dutch influence on Netherlands soil,
while in Germany it began later under German influence, is still not
happening in many dialects and is still perceived as foreign ( </span><i style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">geel</i><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> 'yellow' = German-style) by many speakers.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Traditional Modern Low Saxon | Old Saxon | Old English | Modern English:</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Singular</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> 1. ik | ik | ic | I</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> 2. du | thū | þū (obj. þē) | (thou ~) you
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> 3. masc. hey | hē | hē | he</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> fem. sey | hē | heo | she
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> neut. it ~ et ~ dat | it | hit | it</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> Dual</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> 1. -- | wit | wit | --</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> 2. -- | git | git | --</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Plural</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> 1. wy | wī | wē | we</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> 2. jy | gī | gē (obj. eouw) | you
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> 3. sey | sia | hie | they</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
In
Modern English, the original objective case of the second person plural
form has become the general nominative second person pronoun. This is
because this plural form came to be used as a polite pronoun and
eventually made the familiar pronoun redundant. As a result, there is
no longer a distinction both between familiar and polite and between
singular and plural. </span><br></div> <div><br></div><div>In Frisian (WF) something similar happened: originally one had:</div><div>(modern or premodern forms)</div><div><br></div><div>singular</div><div>(1) ik (obj my)
</div><div>(2) do / dû (obj dy)</div><div>(3) hy (with er as clitic), hja (with se as clitic), it (obj. him, har, it)</div><div><br></div><div>plural [dual survives only in mainland North Frisian: "wat" and "jat" < *wit, *jit]
</div><div>(1) wy </div><div>(2) jy (obj : jo)</div><div>(3) hja (or hjo, in some dialects), obj (h(j)ar)</div><div><br></div><div>jy as the plural became the polite form [based on French "vous", presumably]</div>
<div>and in fact the object form become the form for all forms eventually: jo.</div><div>[jo can be the polite plural and singular form]</div><div>So there was a lack of a proper plural corresping to do/dû, and this became
</div><div>the already old form: jimme (already "belegt" in Old Frisian as jimma) < ji - men (you people).</div><div>This form also exists in North Frisian (jam) so must be from the Middle Ages already, as the split
</div><div class="Ih2E3d">off happened quite early. <br><blockquote style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); margin-left: 40px;" type="cite">Old Low Franconian | Modern Dutch | Afrikaans<br> Singular<br> 1. ik | ik | ek<br> 2. thū | jij, gij | jy
<br> 3. masc. hē | hij | hy<br> fem. hē | zij | sy <br> neut. hē | het | <br> Plural<br> 1. wī (obj. uns) | wij (obj. ons ) | ons<br> 2. fam. gī | ju<u>llie</u> ~ gij | ju<u>lle</u><br> pol. gī | gij ~ u | u
<br> 3. hē | zij | hu<u>lle</u><br><br>In Dutch and Afrikaans, introduction of a polite level caused similar shifts, and the word for "people", "folk" (<i>lied</i>, <i>lui</i>) came to mark the familiar forms and was extended to the equivalent of "they".
<br></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>The j-forms (jij) are the same etymologically as the g-forms (gij); the former are Ingwaeonic forms:</div><div>jij - jou on the coast vs. gij - u in more "pure" Franconan varieties.
</div><div>Now "gij" is the colloquial form in the South (Brabantic and Belgian Dutch), while it is bookish (and written language only)</div><div>in
the North. Jij doesn't occur "natively" in the South, as does "jullie",
I believe. "gij" is more normal (but written language is</div><div>more conformant to Northern practice). </div><div>I
also believe "gijlieden" also existed (to disambiguate between singular
and plural gij, I suppose), but is no longer used, I think.</div><div><br></div><div>The
jij/gij supplanted the older "doe", "dou" (the latter in Northern
varieties). The Bible translation in Dutch (statenvertaling) did not use</div><div>this form but gij instead (the Southern form) which explains the more formal connotation of "gij" in Northern Dutch.</div><div>
(like thou still does in the King James for non-thou speakers).</div><div class="Ih2E3d">U
comes from Uwé (from U.E. < Uw edele "your honour" as used in
letters etc.) so the U form derives from the old possessive of "gij". <br><blockquote style="margin-left: 40px;" type="cite"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">What about <i>u</i>?<br><br>In Neerlandized Low Saxon, does
<i>oe</i> ([u(:)]) for the second person singular and plural come from the same source as Dutch <i>u</i>, or is there a link with old </span><i style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> thū</i><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">?
</span><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br></span></span></blockquote></div><div>It's
the old object form for Old Saxon "ji:" (which still exists in many
varieties, written as "ie", or "i'j" or something similar).</div><div>[the j- form is an Ingvaeonic relic in modern Saxon]</div><div>There
are still dialects that use "doe" for singular (object "die"), "ie" for
plural (object form "oe"), which is the original system.</div><div>Some dialects use "ie" as a polite form as well. </div><div>So "u" and "oe" are related. </div><div><br></div><div>
Henno Brandsma</div></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Henno Brandsma</span> <span class="lDACoc">
<<a href="mailto:hennobrandsma@hetnet.nl">hennobrandsma@hetnet.nl</a>></span></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.06 (03) [E]<br><br></span><div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Modern Low Saxon:<br></div> <ul style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><li><b>sout</b> (pl. soyt)</li><li>born<br></li><li><b>spring ~ spreng ~ sprang</b></li></ul> <div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Old Saxon:<br></div><ul style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><li><b>sōth</b></li><li>born<br></li></ul> <div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Notes:<br><br>Old Frisian:<br></div> <ul style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><li>spring:</li><ul><li>burna</li><li>walla </li></ul><li>well:</li><ul><li>burna</li><li>
walla</li><li><b>sāth</b></li></ul></ul><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Modern WF: boarne (pronounced [bwan@]), saad [somewhat rare], welle [even rarer]
</div><blockquote style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" type="cite"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">I'm also interested in the </span><i style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">séaþ</i><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
/ </span><i style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">sāth</i><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> / </span><i style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">sōth</i><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> group for 'well'. Is there any connection with "to seethe"?
</span><br></span></blockquote><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">It is. WF has "siede" for this verb, Dutch "zieden". In Dutch "zieden" is not used that much (mostly in "ziedend" = very angry),
</div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">while
"siede" is (for me) the normal word for "to cook, to boil" [some
dialects have "koaitsje, kôkje" instead; an early Latin loan].</div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Originally it must have meant a warm well.</div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br></div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Henno</div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Any input would be welcome.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Reinhard/Ron<br></span></div><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#000000">
<br>----------<br></font><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><br>
</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">
sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">> </span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: Etymology</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> <br><br><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Thanks for all of that erudite information, Henno!<br><br>As for "seethe," Modern Low Saxon has
<i>seyden</i> (<i>seden</i> ['zE.Id=n], <i>seiden</i> ['za.Id=n]), but in most dialects it's on its way out.<br><br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br><br><br></span></span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"></span><br><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"></span></div>