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<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 29 January 2008 - Volume 03</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <<a href="mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL">ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL</a>> </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.29 (01) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Exactly the same as in Dutch, those Afrikaans examples. Dutch:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Die vrouw schreeuwt als een viswijf.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">"wijffie" is colloquial Dutch used in the same way as you say in</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Afrikaans, it's Hollandic, hence the -ie instead of -je diminutive.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">And a "wijfje" is a female animal: het wijfje van de spin maakt het</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">mannetje dood na de paring.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Ingmar</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Elsie Zinsser schreef:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Gary, the Afrikaans form 'wyf' is now only used in a pejorative sense as<br>in:<br>Die vrou skreeu soos 'n viswyf. (The woman yells like a fishwife.)<br><br>Wyfie is occasionally used in the sense of 'little wife", which I find<br>
patriarchal, although I hear it is inherently innocent. (Like 'chick' I<br>suppose).<br><br>The female animal form is also called 'wyfie' in Afrikaans. (Die<br>wyfie knopiespinnekop maak die mannetjie dood na paring).<br>
</div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Diederik Masure</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:didimasure@hotmail.com">didimasure@hotmail.com</a>></span></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.29 (02) [D/E/V]<br><br></span><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" face="Arial">On wijf, kerel and vent: <br>
<br>Wijf: funnily
enough the West-Flemish form with /uu/ seems to be more popular around
here than the /ij/ nowadays, especially amongst students. It's not
uncommon of my friends to ask me how it's going with "de wuvves", for
example; <br>Kerel: also seems to have (re?)gained use in slang, as
equivalent for Engl. "dude". A (cool) guy addresses his guy friend
often with "ej kerel"; much alike the use of "gast". In 5th-6th grade
in highschool we usually said "kerel joenge gast!" when someone had
done/said something stupid or so. <br>Vent: the traditional word for
"man", which in dialect is scarcely used. Nowadays "man" is getting
into the language, but its position is not as strong as "vrouw" for
"wijf" (maybe because 'vulgarity' is more accepted when concerning men
than when talking about women). Vent [vINt] /vengt/ is still quite
normal among people in informal situations who don't care that much
about sounding 'correct' and speaking standard language. Or used
'gekscherend' as Roland called it: talking about "x </font><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" face="Arial">eure vengt" has a different and more humorous connotation than "x are man" (x's husband). </font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" face="Arial">In my 'humorous'/dialect/slang register, the world
is divided into "vente" and "kerels" on the one side, and "wijve" and
"griete" on the other. But as with "wijf", also my use of "griet" gets
commented on uniformally. (the first of the 2 always referring to the
older specimens, kerel/griet to a person in the same age-group)</font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" face="Arial">Viele Gruesze! </font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" face="Arial">Diederik</font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Luc Hellinckx</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Etymology"</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><br>
</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Beste Lowlanders,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Regarding the devolution of words in German/Dutch for "wife", view this:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=df2hffj_8fxvtj8dc" target="_blank">http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=df2hffj_8fxvtj8dc</a><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">(source: dtv-Atlas zur deutschen Sprache)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">By the way, you can read the document better if you save the image to</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">your computer first and then open the file in a graphic software program.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">What the article roughly says, is that in the course of time, new words</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">often come from "above". Certain words are in use in higher classes,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">then for some reason get dumped (or the higher class itself disappears),</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">and are later on picked up by lower classes. This could be true I think,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">especially in medieval times, when class-consciousness was probably</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">higher than it is now.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">That's what must have happened with German "Weib" and "Frau", during the</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">17th/18th century. Before that time, "Frau" was exclusively used for</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">women of high class, and "Weib" was the ordinary word (just like wife in</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">English). Then under French influence, new words like "Madame",</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">"Demoiselle" and "Mamsell" got in vogue and "Frau" was deflated,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">substituting "Weib", which in turn couldn't sink much lower, so it</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">became a pejorative word.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">If this is true, it could mean that English society never truly got</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">impregnated with 17th/18th century French court culture (in contrast</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">with the continent).</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Kind greetings,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888"><br>
Luc Hellinckx<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">----------</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"></font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Frank</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:frank.verhoft@skynet.be">frank.verhoft@skynet.be</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">Etymology</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><br>
</span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" id="1f10" class="ArwC7c ckChnd">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font size="2">Hoi,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">Ik vraag me een beetje af hoe het (oude?) woord
'weef' (=weduwe) in het rijtje 'wijf', 'wuuf', 'wuve'
etc. past.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">Alvast bedankt.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">Groetjes,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">Frank Verhoft</font></div></div>
</div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
•
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