<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 05 February 2008 - Volume 06<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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=========================================================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Luc Hellinckx</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Orthography"<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Beste Ivison,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
First of all: what a beautiful name you have!</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
You wrote:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<blockquote style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" type="cite">Dear
sirs,<br>
How was the
Modern Dutch oe /u/ ponounced in Middle Age times?<br>
</blockquote>
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Please read the documents that I scanned from "Middelnederlandse
Spraakkunst" II. Klankleer by Dr. A. Van Loey. Sorry, but it's in Dutch:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
p. 70: </span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=df2hffj_10gswj7hc4" target="_blank">http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=df2hffj_10gswj7hc4</a><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
p. 71: </span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=df2hffj_12gmd5xpzr" target="_blank">http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=df2hffj_12gmd5xpzr</a><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
p. 72: </span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=df2hffj_14f4hq8rdv" target="_blank">http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=df2hffj_14f4hq8rdv</a><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
p. 73: </span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=df2hffj_16cwsjnbww" target="_blank">http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=df2hffj_16cwsjnbww</a><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<blockquote style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" type="cite">I've
just read that is spelled in this way because it was once a diphthong<br>
as in Old
German UO.<br>
</blockquote>
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Definitely spelled as -uo- until the 11th century (in Brabant until the
12th), the article says. Pronunciation differed between the regions,
the (North)west (Flanders + Holland) probably used a long, very closed
monopthong ō, the (South)east said /u:/.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<blockquote style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" type="cite">What
about the dialects of Dutch? Is the word "boek" written and read as<br>
in Dutch?<br>
</blockquote>
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
To my knowledge it's written as "boek" in every Dutch dialect (maybe
not in Limburgish, not sure about that). In general, nowadays, -oe- is
still pronounced very much with closed lips and rounded in the
(North)west, but much more open in the South(east), where umlaut has
also worked for example (see p. 73):</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
groen (D) > grüün (B)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
broer (D) > brüür (B)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
moe (D) > müüg (B)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
...</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Kind greetings,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Luc Hellinckx</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Henno Brandsma</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:hennobrandsma@hetnet.nl">hennobrandsma@hetnet.nl</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Orthography" 2008.02.05 (02) [E]<br><br></span><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">From: Ivison dos Passos Martins <<a href="mailto:ipm7d@OI.COM.BR" target="_blank">ipm7d@OI.COM.BR</a>></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Subject: The oe digraph in Dutch</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Dear sirs,</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">How was the Modern Dutch oe /u/ ponounced in Middle Age times?</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">I've just read that is spelled in this way because it was once a diphthong</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">as in Old German UO.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">What about the dialects of Dutch? Is the word "boek" written and read as</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">in Dutch?</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Thank you so much.</span><br></div> <div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">It probably was pronounced like [u.@] in mnay dialects, so longer [u] sound with weak sjwa.</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">This sound e.g. occurs still in West(erlauwer) Frisian (although this is a different language)</div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">(although not in this word, where we have [buk] like Dutch, and [bu:k] meaning beech).</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">There are still dialects having similar sounds, but also "book" [o:] occurs and also "bouk".</div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
The diphthong tends to remain (longer) before dentals d,t,l,n and of course (compulsory) for r. </div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">So words like "bloed" have this sound more often (cf. W Frisian [blu.@t])</span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
But the western dialects have [u] most of the time. "bouk" or "book" is rare.</div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">These ARE found in Limburgian and in Low Saxon varieties, as common forms, though.</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Henno </div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: Orthography</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">For what it's worth, here are some comparisons:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Old German > Middle German > Modern Standard German [u(:)]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">blôt ~ bluot > bluot > Blut</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">guot ~ kuot ~ guat ~ kuat > guot > gut</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">buoh > buoch > Buch</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">tô- ~ tôa- ~ tuo- ~ tuoa- ~ tue- ~ > tuo- > tu-</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">chuo > kuo > Kuh</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Old Low Franconian > Middle Dutch > Modern Standard Dutch [u(:)]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">bluod > bloet ~ bloed > bloed</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">guod > goet ~ goed- > goed</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">buok > boek > boek</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">duo- > doe- > doe-</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">kuo > koe > koe</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Old Saxon > Middle Saxon > Low Saxon [oʊ] ~ [aʊ]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">blôd > blôd > </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Bloot ~ Blaut</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> = bloud</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">gôd > gôd > </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">goot ~ gaut</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> = goud</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">bôk > bôk > </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Book ~ Bauk</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> = bouk</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">dô- ~ </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">duo</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">- ~ </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">dôa</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">- ~ </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">dua</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">- ~ > dô- > </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">doo- ~ dau-</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> = dou-</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">cô > kô > </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Koh ~ Kauh</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> = kou</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Old Frisian > Modern W. Frisian [uə] ~ [u(:)], [wa(:)], ([y(:)])</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">blôd > bloed</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">gôd > goed</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">bôk > boek</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">dua- > dwa-</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">kú > ko</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Old English > Middle English > Modern English [u(:)] ~ [ʊ] ~ [ʌ], ([aʊ])</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">blód > blode ~ blude > blood</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">gód > gode ~ good > good</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">bóc > bok ~ boke ~ book > good</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">dó- > doo- ~ do- > do</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">cú > cowe ~ cou > cow<br><br>Common Germanic:<br>*blōþ-<br>*gōd-<br>*bōk-<br>*dō-?<br>*kōw</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I find Henno's hypothesis of [uo] in Middle Dutch very plausible considering that the shift was from Old Dutch [uo] to Modern Dutch [u:].</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">