<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 18 February 2008 - Volume 01</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
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<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <<a href="mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL">ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.02.16 (01) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I forgot to mention an important feature of Afrikaans that it has in</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">common with Hollandic dialects, but definitely not with Zeeuws:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">the drop of -t in Dutch consonant clusters sucht as -st, -ft, -cht.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">In Zeeuws this doesn't occur, but in many Hollandic, especially from Zuid-</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Holland, e.g. The Hague, final -t/-d are dropped in consonant clusters.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Dutch hoofd => hoof, Dutch nest => nes, Dutch jacht => jach, etc.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Another one is diminutive -ie, which is typical Hollandic, but not Zeeuws:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Dutch nestje => nessie, Dutch huisje => huisie, Dutch boompje => boompie</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">etc. in all Hollandic dialects, and in Afrikaans, but not in Zeeuws.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I think that Afrikaans is mostly from 17 century Standard Dutch, with a</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">lot of Zuid-Holland dialect. Probably this dialect was a bit closer to</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Zeeuws in that time in some aspects than in the present, geographically</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">it's not too far to the Zeeland islands from Zuid-Holland.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Ingmar</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <</span><a style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);" href="mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL">ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL</a><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">></span><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">
<span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.02.15 (03) [E]</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);"><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">Yes, that an incorrect but very popular myth, especially among Zeeland</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">
<span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">people themselves.</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">If we compare Afrikaans, Dutch and Zeeuws, we'll find that Afrikaans is in</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">
<span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">almost all phonologic features closer to Dutch and the Hollandic dialects</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">than to Zeeuws.</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">
<br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">In Zeeuws, Dutch H is dropped, not so in Afrikaans which keeps H</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">In Zeeuws, Dutch G [x] is pronounced H, not in Afrikaans where it's G [x]</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">
<span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">In Zeeuws, Dutch UI is pronounced [y], not so in Afrikaans where it's UI</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">In Zeeuws, Dutch Y/IJ is pronounced [i], not in Afrikaans where it's Y</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">
<span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">In Zeeuws, Dutch -EN [@] is pronounced [n], not in Afr. where it's -E [@]</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">In Zeeuws, Dutch JOU, NOU with [au] is JOE, NOE with [u] in Afr. JOU, NOU</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">
<span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">In Zeeuws, Dutch AA [a:] is pronounced AE [E:]/[e:], in Afr. AA [a:], [Q:]</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);"><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">The only thing Afrikaans and Zeeuws have in common is the pronunciation of</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">
<span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">EE and OO as falling diphthongs, but in older Hollandic dialects that was</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">the prono too, so probably Afrikaans has it from there.</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">
<br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">I know very well out of my own experience how Zeeuws and Dutch with a</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">Zeeuws accent sound, because my mother spoke it with her family all the</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">
<span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">time, and I can assure you it's very different from Afrikaans.</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">But the myth is persistent, even my mom things it's true...</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">
<br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">Ingmar</span><br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">J.Liek</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:ir.j.liek@gmail.com">ir.j.liek@gmail.com</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.02.17 (02) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">> From: Elsie Zinsser <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:ezinsser@icon.co.za">ezinsser@icon.co.za</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> <mailto:</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:ezinsser@icon.co.za">ezinsser@icon.co.za</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">>></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div><span id="q_1182bb97417ea8bf_3" class="WQ9l9c">- Show quoted text -</span></div><div class="Wj3C7c">> Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.02.15 (03) [E]<br>
><br>> Hi all,<br>><br>> Ron, not coincidental at all but features strongly in Dutch /<br>> Afrikaans comparative studies.<br>><br>> Elsie Zinsser<br>><br>> I assume many of you remember the thesis according to which most or<br>
> all non-European "Dutch"-based language varieties are primarily based<br>> on Zeelandic (/Zeêuws/). This makes sense historically, considering<br>> Zeeland's seafaring traditions. And there appear to be linguistic<br>
> indications as well, some of which Marco Evenhuis told us about two or<br>> three years ago.<br>><br>> I have been listening to the Zeelandic and West Flemish translations<br>> of our wren story, since we are dealing with closely related varieties<br>
> that ought to be treated as one group were it not for political<br>> distinctions):<br>><br>> · *(1) Kwadendamme Zeelandic*<br>> <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/zeeuws.php" target="_blank">http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/zeeuws.php</a><br>
><br>> · (2) Nieuwport West Flemish<br>> <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/westvlams2.php" target="_blank">http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/westvlams2.php</a><br>><br>> · *(3) Roeselare West Flemish*<br>
> <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/westvlams.php" target="_blank">http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/westvlams.php</a><br>><br>> On that basis I took another look at the translations without audio<br>> files in order to find orthographic indicators:<br>
><br>> · *(4) Oost Souburg Zeelandic*<br>> <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/zeeuws-oostsouburg.php" target="_blank">http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/zeeuws-oostsouburg.php</a><br>><br>> · (5) Ostend West Flemish<br>
> <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/westvlams3.php" target="_blank">http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/westvlams3.php</a><br>><br>> I concentrated on falling diphthongs, namely on those that tend to be<br>
> spelled /eê/ and /oô/ (~ /ô/) and tend to be pronounced [eˑɛ] ~ [iˑe]<br>> (SAMPA [e:\E] ~ [i:\e]) and [oˑɔ] ~ [uˑo] (SAMPA [o:\O] ~ [u:\o])<br>> respectively. These seem to be present in all of the above except in<br>
> the Nieuwport dialect. Furthermore, in Western Brabantish (which has<br>> Flemish substrata) I found what I consider a relative set of<br>> diphthongs, not in the (6) Antwerp dialect<br>> (<a href="http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/brabants-antwerpen.php" target="_blank">http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/brabants-antwerpen.php</a>) but in the<br>
> *(7) Merchtem dialect*<br>> (<a href="http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/brabants.php" target="_blank">http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/brabants.php</a>): [iˑə] (SAMPA [i:\@])<br>> and [uˑə] (SAMPA [u:\@]) respectively. These are the equivalents of<br>
> what in (8) Standard Dutch are spelled /ee/ and /oo/ respectively,<br>> originally indicating long monophthongs: [e:] and [o:] respectively,<br>> though in some dialects the are now pronounced as rising diphthongs:<br>
> [eˑɪ] (SAMPA [e:\I]) and [oˑʊ] (SAMPA [o:\U]) respectively.<br>><br>> This is indeed very similar to, in some cases virtually identical<br>> with, *(9) Afrikaans*: /ee/ [iˑe] and /oo/ [uˑo] (SAMPA [i:\e] and<br>
> [u:\o]); e.g.,<br>><br>> · */keer/** *(time, occasion):<br>> (1) /keêr/<br>> (3) /keê/<br>> (4) /keêr/<br>> (7) /kieë/<br>> (9) /keer/ [kiˑer]<br>><br>> · */groot/** *(great, large, big):<br>
> (1) /groôt/<br>> (3) /groôt/<br>> (4) /groôt/<br>> (7) /groeët/<br>> (9) /groot /[xruˑot]<br>><br>> Be it related or coincidental, there appears to be a common<br>> phonological feature in Flemish-Zeelandic and Afrikaans.<br>
><br>> Regards,<br>> Reinhard/Ron<br>><br>> ----------<br>><br></div></div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">> From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> <mailto:</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">>></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div><span id="q_1182bb97417ea8bf_5" class="WQ9l9c">- Show quoted text -</span></div><div class="Wj3C7c">> Subject: Language varieties<br>><br>> Thanks, Elsie, and Ingmar as well.<br>
><br>> Of course I never expected the roots of Afrikaans to be traceable to a<br>> single Dutch dialects or dialect group. After all, early emigrants<br>> came from many parts of the Netherlands, and I am not aware of any<br>
> dominant group. Yes, officials, merchants and church people dominated<br>> politically, but I rather suspect that they, too, spoke with whatever<br>> "accents" were native to them. Most people were most likely not<br>
> particularly strong in what at the time approached Standard Dutch, and<br>> they got by by using their own dialects or dialect-colored<br>> approximations and by understanding those of others. Throw into this<br>
> mix Indonesians and indigenous Africans who approximated whatever<br>> forms of Dutch as a second or third language,. And never forget the<br>> large number of French-speaking Huguenots ...<br>><br>> When you deal with mixes of this sort in conjunction with low literacy<br>
> rates (not to mention the scarcity of model speakers) you tend to end<br>> up with a conglomeration of features from various contributing<br>> language varieties. Indonesian slaves approximated whatever speech<br>
> forms they heard in the households for which they worked. Being<br>> linguistically diverse to begin with, they taught each other their<br>> "Cape Dutch" approximations, and the nannies among them used them with<br>
> the European children for which they cared, for whom these were<br>> virtually native languages (since nannies tended to spend more time<br>> with children than did the children's parents). When people of<br>
> part-European-part-African descent came to be grouped together they<br>> probably began to develop their own varieties on this basis. (This may<br>> well be the genesis of Griqua Afrikaans, for instance:<br>> <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/griekwa.php." target="_blank">http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/griekwa.php.</a>)<br>
><br>> In a word, I agree that Zeelandic is not /the/ ancestor of Afrikaans.<br>> However, I do believe that the falling diphthong feature is likely to<br>> be a contribution, if not of Zeelandic alone, of southwestern Dutch<br>
> dialects (possibly varieties with Frisian substrata, since they are<br>> predominantly coastal dialects).<br>><br>> This begs the question if phonological feature selection in hybrids of<br>> closely related language varieties depends only on model predominance<br>
> or also on native limitations and preferences/selection of those that<br>> approximate a set of model varieties. In other words, were falling<br>> diphthongs perhaps preferable to speakers of Malayic, Khoi-San and<br>
> Nguni-Bantu languages?<br>><br>> When we discuss such hybridization processes we might also bear in<br>> mind that the early development of Old English may well have followed<br>> similar patterns. In this case we may want to pay special attention to<br>
> the possible role of Old Frisian and women, which may explain the<br>> Anglo-Frisian branch hypothesis.<br>><br>> Musing,<br>> Reinhard/Ron<br>><br></div></div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Mijn zoon werkte in 1983 aan de bouw van een papierfabriek in de buurt</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">van Nelspruit. Hij spreekt Nederlands maar kan Zeeuws goed verstaan</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">omdat hij thuis van mij niets anders hoorde. Het contact met Afrikaners</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">was relatief makkelijk omdat het hem vaak deed denken aan mijn Schouws</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">(Noord-Zeeuws).</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Als voorbeeld herinner ik me nog vleis (=vlees in Nederlands)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Grt.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Jaap Liek</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888"><br>--<br>Met vriendelijke groet,<br>
J. Liek<br>Boulevard de Ruyter 140 * 4381 KD * Vlissingen<br>tel: 0118 435 825 || mob: 0640 04 64 50<br><a href="http://oostgat.googlepages.com/" target="_blank">http://oostgat.googlepages.com</a><br></font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
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