<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 19 February 2008 - Volume 01<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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=========================================================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Henno Brandsma</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:hennobrandsma@hetnet.nl">hennobrandsma@hetnet.nl</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.02.18 (01) [D/E]<br></span><blockquote style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" type="cite">
<div><div>> In a word, I agree that Zeelandic is not /the/ ancestor of Afrikaans.<br>> However, I do believe that the falling diphthong feature is likely to<br>> be a contribution, if not of Zeelandic alone, of southwestern Dutch<br>
> dialects (possibly varieties with Frisian substrata, since they are<br>> predominantly coastal dialects).<br></div></div></blockquote><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">These falling diphthongs are quite prominent in many conservative Hollandic dialects, indeed.</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Sometimes they depend on the consonant following, or even the historical origin (as is the most original):</div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">diphthong for old o: from "au" in Germanic, and plain o: for lengthened o/u in open syllable.</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Similarly for e: of 2 origins. It still exists, but it's getting rarer in Hollandic dialects.</div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">It could be that Afrikaans generalised 1 of these sounds.</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="Ih2E3d"><blockquote type="cite"><div><div>> This begs the question if phonological feature selection in hybrids of<br>> closely related language varieties depends only on model predominance<br>
> or also on native limitations and preferences/selection of those that<br>> approximate a set of model varieties. In other words, were falling<br>> diphthongs perhaps preferable to speakers of Malayic, Khoi-San and<br>
> Nguni-Bantu languages?<br>><br>> When we discuss such hybridization processes we might also bear in<br>> mind that the early development of Old English may well have followed<br>> similar patterns. In this case we may want to pay special attention to<br>
> the possible role of Old Frisian and women, which may explain the<br>> Anglo-Frisian branch hypothesis.<br>><br>> Musing,<br>> Reinhard/Ron<br>><br></div></div>Mijn zoon werkte in 1983 aan de bouw van een papierfabriek in de buurt<br>
van Nelspruit. Hij spreekt Nederlands maar kan Zeeuws goed verstaan<br>omdat hij thuis van mij niets anders hoorde. Het contact met Afrikaners<br> was relatief makkelijk omdat het hem vaak deed denken aan mijn Schouws<br>
(Noord-Zeeuws).<br> Als voorbeeld herinner ik me nog vleis (=vlees in Nederlands)<br>Grt.<br> Jaap Liek<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888"><br></font></blockquote></div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
vleis for "vlees" is common in the whole of Holland, up to West-Friesland. </div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">It also exists in Town Frisian mixture dialects, and is there a Hollandic feature</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">(fleis). This was even borrowed into standard Frisian, although a few dialects </div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">preserve the original "flêsk" or "flesk" form.</div>
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888"><div><br></div><div>Henno</div></font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Mark Dreyer</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:mrdreyer@lantic.net">mrdreyer@lantic.net</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.02.18 (01) [D/E]<br><br></span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Dear All:</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L
"Phonology" </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Now this is a most satisfying
string!</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">With my apologies as
a naïf, I would like to take my stand with Ingmar. Reading from Jan Alleman's
diary It is plain that the overwhelming majority of VOC employees were
'outsiders'. The established trades included merchants, clerks, shipwrights,
riggers, & seamen. These blokes could not be spared for putting up mere
'refreshment stations'. Those that could be spared were
market gardeners, husbandmen, carpenters & builders. Their trade was
not the sea. They must have been passed through the system below decks,
summarily incorporated into it, perhaps no more than just enough
to understand & take orders, likely chiefly the Zeelands bos'n
with a heavy hand, then passed out of the system, influenced by it but not
totally shaped by it. </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Ingmar: I think that Afrikaans
is mostly from 17 century Standard Dutch, with a<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>lot of Zuid-Holland dialect.
Probably this dialect was a bit closer to<br>Zeeuws in that time in some
aspects than in the present, geographically<br>it's not too far to the Zeeland
islands from Zuid-Holland.</div></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Yrs,</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Mark<br><br>----------<br><br>
From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <<a href="mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL">ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL</a>><br>
Subject: <span class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.02.18 (01) [D/E]</span><br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I found an interesting list of the first white settlers in the Dutch Cape</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Colony by origin.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">The largest group is from the Hollandic dialect area (Noord-Holland, Zuid-</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Holland, Utrecht) with 73 persons. The second group is actually from</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">the "Low German area" in Germany, 68 persons, excluding people from Low</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Saxon areas in the Netherlands, such as Groningen (5), Overijssel (6) and</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">part of Gelderland (16). 25 were from Scandinavia, Flemish Belgium gave 24</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">settlers.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">But the striking thing is: only 7 out of 264 were from Zeeland.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Ingmar</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">(KLOEKE, G.G. 1950. "Herkomst en groei van het Afrikaans". Universitaire </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Pers, Leiden)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Kloeke geeft uitsluitsel via een goed uitgesplitste statistiek.(C. </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Rangschikking der blanke bevolking volgens herkomst:)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Na aftrek van de niet- of niet-bevredigend-localiseerbar</span>e personen kunnenwe de overigen als volgt naar herkomst rangschikken:<br><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" id="1f2s" class="ArwC7c ckChnd">
34 uit Noord-Holland ...<br>24 uit Zuid-Holland ...<br>15 uit Utrecht ...<br>12 uit Noord-Brabant ...<br>16 uit Gelderland ...<br>7 uit Zeeland<br>4 uit Friesland<br>5 uit Groningen<br>6 uit Overijsel<br>24 uit het Vlaams-sprekende deel van België (waarvan 6 uit Gent en 4 uit Brussel)<br>
3 uit Wallonië<br>3 uit Frans-Vlaanderen<br>1 uit Havre<br>68 uit het Nederduitse taalgebied<br>14 uit het Hoogduitse taalgebied<br>11 uit Noorwegen<br>8 uit Denemarken<br>5 uit Zweden<br>1 Schot<br>1 Estlander<br>1 IJslander<br>
1 uit Bengalen (hier ressorteerende onder de blanken)<br>-----<br>264 in totaal. Daarvan 58 Hollanders, 147 Nederlanders (met inbegrip van<br>Vlamingen en Hollanders) en 82 Duitsers.<br></div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><br>
</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">