<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 23 February 2008 - Volume 02<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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=========================================================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);"><a href="mailto:foga0301@stcloudstate.edu">foga0301@stcloudstate.edu</a></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Etymology"<br></span><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Hello all,</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> I can relate to this -<i>hagen</i> question from my time
in Pakistan. In the Punjab, rich people have public gardens named after them—the
famous ones from long ago, especially. They are called <i>baaghs</i>. In his book,
<i>Just So Stories</i>, Rudyard Kipling wrote of one of these that was owned by
King Solomon, himself. The setting establishes Solomon's title as ruler over
all the world (including the whales in the sea). It's a precious piece of
literature since he shares this title equally with the <span><span style="color: black;" lang="EN">Queen of Sheba, if I remember right. They also have
Arabic-sounding names in the story. The title says something about a butterfly
stamping his foot (to intimidate/impress his wife by making the world disappear).
Ah, here it is in full: <a href="http://www.boop.org/jan/justso/butter.htm" target="_blank">http://www.boop.org/jan/justso/butter.htm</a></span></span><span><span lang="EN">.</span></span><span lang="EN"> </span>These
days, such royal <span><i><span style="font-weight: normal;">baaghs</span></i></span>
are tourist sites—places to remember the grandeur of the past. If I remember
right, they all have the suffix –<i>baagh</i>. Is that the Urdu/Hindi
equivalent of <i>hag</i>-? If so, it might be the oldest use of the word, and
the most prestigious. </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> I'm playing with the keyboard trying to type in Hindi…
there's what I think spells the suffix/word –<i>baagh</i> [<span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="HI">अ</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="HI">ग</span>]<span style="font-size: 10pt;">…</span> no it's a soft "b" [<span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="HI">बाग</span></span><span>]
in the online dictionary—which goes for a range of enclosures [</span><span><i><span style="font-weight: normal;">paradise, vineyard, orchard, rosary</span></i></span><span><span style="font-weight: normal;">] as well as the bridle of a horse
(not sure why that fits here). And here's another dictionary's account: <i>garden,
</i></span></span><i>grove, cluster of trees, plantation</i>; also <i>children,
family, offspring</i>; adj. <i>rejoicing</i>. But when you add the verb <i>dikhānā</i>,
its meaning shifts to: <span><span style="font-weight: normal;"></span></span><i>to
excite desire and expectation by deceitful promises</i>. And the verb <i>bāg</i><i><span>̠</span>-<u>kārī</u></i><u> </u>shifts
it to: <i>delude, deceive, cheat</i>. Hum. What does this say about what kings
do in their gardens? This makes Kipling's tale all the more meaningful. </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Gael Fonken</p><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(79, 129, 189);">Ron, you wrote:<br>
</span></p>
<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(79, 129, 189); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I don't think
that Hagen ~ Haan ~ Hahn as a surname carried any negative connotations, and I
don't only say this because it's close to home. I believe that originally it
referred to a settler by or with a haw (enclosed land). The negative stuff our
Luc dredged up surely came later, or so I like to think.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><span></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: Etymology<br><br>Hi, Gael!<br><br>Thanks for the interesting information.<br><br>I believe Hindi <i>bāg ~ bāġ</i> (बाग ~ बाग़) and Urdu <i>bāġ </i>(باغ) are derived from Persian (comprising Farsi, Dari and Tajik) <i>bāġ</i> (باغ) 'garden'. The occurrence of the fricative equivalent of /g/ point to foreign, typically Persian, origin. Bāġ is also a Persian-derived word in all languages of Islamic Turkic peoples; e.g., Uyghur <i>b</i></span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">āğ</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> (باغ, бағ), Uzbek <i>boğ</i> (боғ, باغ), Kazakh <i>baq</i> (бақ), Kyrgyz </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">baq </i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">(бак), Turkmen <i>b</i><i>āg</i> (баг, bag), Azeri <i>bağ</i>, Turkish <i>bağ</i>, Tatar <i>bag</i> (баг), and Bashkir <i>bag</i> (баг). These tend to denote stately gardens or parks, sometimes things like 'orchard' (competing with Arabic-derived <i>bost</i><i>ān</i>) or 'park', while diminutive derivatives (e.g. Azeri <i>bağça</i>, Turkish <i>bahçe</i>) tend to denote private gardens.<br>
<br>As you probably know, the influence of Persian language and culture, including architecture and gardening, on those of South and Central Asia cannot be understated.<br><br>Persian being Indo-European, I wonder if <i>bāġ </i>(باغ) is related with European "park," Pferch, parricus, etc., a group we discussed not too long ago. Consider Sanskrit words for "envelop," "fence off," "enclose" or "enclosure": <i>paribhū </i>(परिभू), <i>parici </i>(परिचि), <i>paridhā </i>(परिधा), <i>parigrah </i>(परिग्रह्), <i>parirudh </i>(परिरुध्), <i>parist<u>r</u> </i>(परिस्तृ), <i>pariv<u>r</u>j</i> (परिवृज्), <i>parizri</i> (परिज़्रि).</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>As for <i>"</i>garden<i>,"</i> I rather suspect that pre-Islamic Indo-Aryan used a word with a very similar semantic development as Germanic *<i>hag(Vn)</i>, exemplified by Sanskrit (and also Pali) <i>dh</i><i>ā</i><i>r</i><i>ā</i> (धारा): 'margin' , 'sharp edge (e.g. of a weapon)', 'rim', 'blade', 'fence or hedge of a garden', 'garden'.<br>
<br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">