<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 04 March 2008 - Volume 02<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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=========================================================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <<a href="mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL">ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.03.03 (02) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Are you sure about Frisian "ticht" meaning open? Because normally it just</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
means "close(d)", as Dutch "dicht" does. Can you give an example of this</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
usage, and where you found it, Reinhard? The Frisian word for open</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
is "iepen", Dutch "open".</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Btw in Low Saxon in the Netherlands, the word "lös" is used for open.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
This leads to fun and confusion with Dutch speakers, because Dutch "los"</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
means loose. Many Low Saxon speakers will say in Dutch "de deur is los"</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
(the doore has got loose) or "de winkel is los" (the shop is sold out)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
instead of correct Dutch "de deur is open" and "de winkel is open" (the</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
door/shop is open).</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Does this also occur in Low Saxon in Germany?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Ingmar</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Etymology<br><br>
Folks,<br><br>
Here's a seemingly weird one.<br><br>
How do you explain West (Westerlauwers) Frisian *ticht* 'open'?<br><br>
I would associate it with English "tight", Scots *ticht* [tɪxt], Low<br>
Saxon,<br>
Dutch, German *dicht* 'tight', 'near', 'close', 'closed', 'shut', etc.<br><br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron<br></div>
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<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Henno Brandsma</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:hennobrandsma@hetnet.nl">hennobrandsma@hetnet.nl</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Etymology" 2008.03.03 (03) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: <span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">orville crane</span> <span><<a href="mailto:manbythewater@hotmail.com" target="_blank">manbythewater@hotmail.com</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: iepen, ticht<br><br> Dear Ron,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Yes, I thought that it was strange that "ticht" would mean open too.
I looked up "ticht" in the glossary of P. Sipma's "Phonology and
Grammar of Modern West Frisian", 1913, second edition 1966.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
"Ticht" is defined as close, dense. I suppose that it would be
cognate to tight. So you were right to think that something was odd.</span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Indeed.
I was about to reply, but you beat me to it.. The word for "open" is
"iepen" from Old Frisian "e:pen". This must have come (as e.g. Spenter
also thinks in his dissertation on the Schiermonnikoog dialect) from
something like "øpen", which has cognates in Scandinavian (from "opin"
or something like that, with fronting-causing i in the next syllable
and the result was derounded, as always in Frisian. The lengthening was
probably caused by a clustering, like "øppn".</div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">E..g German has
"offen" (so short still and no fronting), Dutch, like English "open"
(no fronting, lengthening in open syllable, presumably). Saterfrisian
has "eepen" still. So in West-germanic, the fronting seems odd. Maybe
Low Saxon varieties also have umlauted (fronted) vowels? I think I
recall forms like "eupen", if not in Low Saxon, then in Limburgian, or
both.</div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">But coming back to "ticht" (closed, indeed, or dense,
of fog etc.): the t- is like English tight, Scots ticht etc. But then
why do Dutch and German have d- ?</div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">makes no sense. Either the
t- is old in WF or it comes from "th" (regular in (Westerlauwer and
most other) Frisian: trije ~ three, troch ~ through etc.)</div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">and this would explain Dutch/German d-. </div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="Ih2E3d">
<br><blockquote type="cite"><p> Incidentally, in Faroese, West North Germanic, the word for tight,
dense, close-packed is "taettur". "Taettur" stands in contrast to
"tjukkur"; thick or stout. Going back to our Frisian friend, "ticht",
we also find "tsjok" (thick) in contrast.</p></blockquote></div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Indeed,
from "*thiuk" in Old Frisian, with Old Frisian breaking of -i- (as in
"rjocht", right) and regular th --> t, where t+i+V becomes tsj+V
normally.</span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">It only means "thick" for things like porridge etc.
People are called "grou" when they are overweight (as the Dutch cognate
"dik" is used for that in Dutch).<div><br><blockquote type="cite"><p> It is my pleasure to read the Lowland blog, As you can see by my email address, <a href="mailto:manbythewater@hotmail.com" target="_blank">manbythewater@hotmail.com</a>, I am also a Lowlander by the sea in peninsular New Jersey.<br>
Yours truly,<br> Tom Crane +</p></blockquote>regards</div></div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></div><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888"><div>Henno Brandsma</div>
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