<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 14 March 2008 - Volume 02<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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=========================================================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Luc Hellinckx</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Language varieties"<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Beste Ron,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
You wrote:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<blockquote style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" type="cite">I
can't give you an authoritative answer to your question. But while
we're at it, let me just throw into the arena that I have also read
about the claim that the sentence is more likely to be Old Limburgish
than Old Dutch.<br>
</blockquote>
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Old Limburgish? First time I hear this. Most people connect the
sentence with early Western Flemish, possibly with Frisian overtones.
Others think more specifically of French Flanders (Calais region), some
even see Kentish influence in the text (number of Flemish monks
crossing the channel, increased after William the Conqueror). But
Limburgish???</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
By the way, "hinase" means "except": hinase < hit ne sē, which has
become "tenzij" in modern Dutch, "unless". As far as I know, "tenzij"
is no dialect term these days, but "tenware" (< het en ware)
definitely is, my mom uses it quite frequently, pronounced "twáá".</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
More info about "Olla Uogala...":
</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="http://www.inl.nl/onw/literatuur-vogala.html" target="_blank">http://www.inl.nl/onw/literatuur-vogala.html</a><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Kind greetings,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888">
<br>
Luc Hellinckx</font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: Language varieties</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Hi, Luc!</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I'm not completely sure where I came across that statement of reference. It could have been in Orrin W. Robinson, </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Old English and its Closest Relatives: A Survey of the Earliest Germanic Languages</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">, Routledge 1992. I don't have access to it right now. So I can't check.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <<a href="mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL">ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.03.14 (02) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Maybe it is better to say: the oldest known text in Old SOUTH WEST Low</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Franconian, i.e. the Flemish dialect group of Dutch, incl. French Flemish</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
(France), West Flemish (Belgium) and Zeeland Flemish (the Netherlands).</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
This is a dialect group with many so called Ingvaeonic or North Sea</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Germanic features, an example here is "o" in stead of "a" in "olla".</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Typically Dutch is "v" in stead of "f" in "vogala", even though present</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
day German has "Vogel", too, for some reason I like to know more about.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
German has usually f where Dutch has v, but V in words like "Vater",</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
"Vogel", "Vieh". I can imagine "vier" in contrast with "fünf", and "vor"</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
against "für", but about the other words it seems rather random. Maybe it</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
has something to do with the old Gothic spelling of German? Like in</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
English where many words are spelt with "mo-" in stead of "mu", and "wo"</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
instead of "wu", because it was better readable in handwriting.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Back to that sentence, "Hebban Olla Vogala Nestas Higunnan Hinase Hic Enda</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Thu, Uuat Unbidan Uui Nu?". Lit "Have all the birds begun nest except I</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
and thou, what are we waiting for now?"</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Something that makes it likely to be Flemish is, apart from "olla", the H</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
in the word "hic", because in Flemish there is confusion about where H</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
should be pronounced or not.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Also "hic" (I) shows us that it's no Limburgish text, because of the hard</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
-k sound as in Dutch (incl Flemish), where Limburgish, like German, has</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
the ich-laut. The word "enda" (and) proves the Western Dutch origin even</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
more, in the East (Limburgish) it would be something like "unde".</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I think in Anglo Saxon, there would not be a V but an F in vogala, no i</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
but e in uui (we), no uuat but huuat, no hic but i/iç, etc.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
So that would make this little text Flemish, and that is part of Dutch.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
But if this means it's the oldest text in Old Low Franconian? There are</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
also the older "Wachtendonkse Psalmen", but they have a clearly Limburgish</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
flavour, and are even claimed to be German...</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Hebban olla liude her mine hertelice groete!</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Ingmar</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
From: <a href="mailto:Georg.Deutsch@esa.int">Georg.Deutsch@esa.int</a><br>
Subject: Old Low Franconian<br><br>
Dear Ron and all others,<br><br>
in your translation of the speech made for you by the Flemish minister you<br>
mention in your note commenting the sentence *Hebben olla vogala<br>
[vogola]....:*<br>
" oldest extant text in Old Low Franconian".<br><br>
I know that according to the (or at least an ) common opinion this is<br>
indeed (one of) the oldest known Old Low Franconian texts.<br>
However, I also had noticed that some consider this rather as an early<br>
Anglo-Saxon text.<br>
I cannot judge how serious this should be taken. Anybody around who can<br>
enlighten me in this?<br><br>
regards<br><br>
Georg Deutsch<br><br>
----------<br><br>
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Language varieties<br><br>
Georg,<br><br>
I can't give you an authoritative answer to your question. But while we're<br>
at it, let me just throw into the arena that I have also read about the<br>
claim that the sentence is more likely to be Old Limburgish than Old Dutch.<br><br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron<br></div>
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Theo Homan</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:theohoman@yahoo.com">theohoman@yahoo.com</a>></span></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.03.14 (02) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>
</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> From: </span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:Georg.Deutsch@esa.int">Georg.Deutsch@esa.int</a><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> Subject: Old Low Franconian</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> Dear Ron and all others,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> in your translation of the speech made for you by</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> the Flemish minister you</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> mention in your note commenting the sentence *Hebben</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> olla vogala [vogola]....:*</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> " oldest extant text in Old Low Franconian".</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> I know that according to the (or at least an )</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> common opinion this is</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> indeed (one of) the oldest known Old Low Franconian</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> texts.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> However, I also had noticed that some consider this</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> rather as an early Anglo-Saxon text.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> I cannot judge how serious this should be taken.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> Anybody around who can enlighten me in this?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> regards</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> Georg Deutsch</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Georg,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I cannot say much on this topic, as this topic is</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
rather sensible, and only a handful good people are</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
chosen to be an authority in these matters.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
But the latest news is that this 'olla vogala' text</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
[which is not the oldest attested sentence in dutch cg</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
lowfranconian] very well could be oldkentish, with a</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
slight difference in meaning.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
And this view is the one I favour.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
The vogala-text has -in the manuscript- a latin</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
parallel.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
The old view said: the franconian text has been made</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
by a flemish student/monk and to explain the poem to</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
his english classmates he made the latin text.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Well, the latin text may be divided in 3 parts [count</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
the syllables] and then the kentish text is the</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
translation.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
But don't tell all the good people that I favour this</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
view.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
[The internet provides ample information.]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="http://vr.gr/" target="_blank">vr.gr</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888">Theo Homan</font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">