<div style="text-align: center;">=========================================================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 21 March 2008 - Volume 09<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">-------------------------------------------------------------------------</span><br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Please set the encoding mode to Unicode (UTF-8).</span><br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">If viewing this in a web browser, please click on</span><br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">the html toggle at the bottom of the archived page.</span><br>=========================================================================<br></div><br>From: <span class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">orville crane</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:manbythewater@hotmail.com">manbythewater@hotmail.com</a>></span></span><br>
Subject: <span class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Gender" 2008.03.21 (02) [E]<br><br></span>Kindness goes a long way, especially with someone who makes an error in
grammar. I ask myself, can I understand this person? Since I am not
this person's language teacher, I don't make a big deal about their
mistakes. I don't want to make the person feel any less, because they
make grammatical mistakes.<br>
<br>
Language is like music. Unless you are tone deaf, you will eventually be true to the melody.<br>
Tom +<br>
man by the water<br>
<br>----------<br><br>From: <span class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(200, 137, 0);">Brooks, Mark</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:mark.brooks@twc.state.tx.us">mark.brooks@twc.state.tx.us</a>></span></span><span class="HcCDpe"><span class="lDACoc"></span></span><br>
Subject: <span class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Gender" 2008.03.21 (02) [E]</span><br><p><font color="navy" face="Berlin Sans FB" size="4"><span style="font-size: 14pt; color: navy;">Ron wrote: "</span></font><font color="navy" face="Berlin Sans FB" size="4"><span style="font-size: 14pt; color: navy;">The greatest problem seems to be this
"collective gender" thing…"</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Berlin Sans FB" size="4"><span style="font-size: 14pt; color: navy;">You can say THAT
again! I've run across this kind of thing time and again. Here in the USA we
have taken a sort of over-zealous stance in this regard. In an effort to avoid
sexist statements, we've developed some almost tortured ways of handling it. I
kind of envy the simplicity of Spanish and Portuguese in this regard.</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Berlin Sans FB" size="4"><span style="font-size: 14pt; color: navy;">I develop
training material for the staff in our Tele-Centers. That means I do a lot of
writing. We've tried to come up with good ways of handling this problem, but I
don't think we've completely succeeded. </span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Berlin Sans FB" size="4"><span style="font-size: 14pt; color: navy;">When I want to
write an instruction for what to tell one of our Unemployment Insurance claimants,
I have to work creatively with it. Let's say I want to tell our Customer
Service Reps that the claimant should do something specific. I will write, "If
the claimant cannot provide [possessive pronoun] documents, then [subject
pronoun] must request duplicates." What do I put in the space for the
pronouns? Spanish would say use the masculine pronouns, and everyone will know
it includes both genders. Well, not in the USA. None of the solutions provide
a satisfactory (IMO) outcome. I can try:</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Berlin Sans FB" size="4"><span style="font-size: 14pt; color: navy;">A. If the
claimant cannot provide his or her documents, then he or she must request
duplicates.</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Berlin Sans FB" size="4"><span style="font-size: 14pt; color: navy;">B. If the
claimant cannot provide the documents, then s/he must request duplicates.</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Berlin Sans FB" size="4"><span style="font-size: 14pt; color: navy;">C. If claimants
cannot provide their documents, then they must request duplicates.</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Berlin Sans FB" size="4"><span style="font-size: 14pt; color: navy;">D. Alternate
using he in one sentence and she in another. But, that sounds awkward. </span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Berlin Sans FB" size="4"><span style="font-size: 14pt; color: navy;">E. Use he in
one paragraph and she in another. Better, but still awkward.</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Berlin Sans FB" size="4"><span style="font-size: 14pt; color: navy;">F. Alternate using
he in one document and she in another. But, that runs the risk of appearing
sexist anyway.</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Berlin Sans FB" size="4"><span style="font-size: 14pt; color: navy;">G. Make up a
new non-gender pronoun like "le."</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Berlin Sans FB" size="4"><span style="font-size: 14pt; color: navy;">So far, option
C has ruled the day, but it still doesn't solve the problem.</span></font></p>
<font color="navy" face="Berlin Sans FB" size="4"><span style="font-size: 14pt; color: navy;">Mark Brooks</span></font><br><br><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(204, 0, 96);">Mark Dreyer</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:mrdreyer@lantic.net">mrdreyer@lantic.net</a>></span><span class="lDACoc"></span><span class="lDACoc"></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Gender" 2008.03.21 (02) [E]<br><br></span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" id="1ert" class="ArwC7c ckChnd">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div>Hey Ron, Elsie,
Ivison, All:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Subject: LL-L
"Orthography"<br><br>Dear Maria Elsie
Zinsser,<br><br>Ivison, you wrote: I'm really
sorry I'd written "dear sirs". I did want to sound sexist.<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>Next time I'll pay attention to
it. As my first language is Portuguese I<br>didn't notice it, because to me
the word "sirs" refers to ladies and<br>gentlemen. But thanks for your
comments. You're right.<br></div></div>
<div><font size="2">Dear Ivison, I hope your open invitation applies to
me also. If so, allow me please to point out that, in good English, collective
honourifics & collective nouns expressed in the masculine sense are not
necessarily gender specific.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">To this day we can say, "Men rate Gunston Great!"
& include women also in that category <u>& </u>only offend the
anti-tobacco lobby (I am a non-smoker). It was deemed necessary over two hundred
years ago to specify this point in British Law, & it is still a legal joke
to quote some otherwise banal judge declaring to a jurist who may perhaps have
seemed rather vague in this matter, "Are you not aware, Sir, that since 1881
'man' embraces 'woman'? In Victorian circles this sort of chaff was held to
be fraitfulleh raceh, y'know.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">It is only social engineers whom I hold
in little respect (they nearly keldered Afrikaans) who are unwilling to let this
little fact go, that when I talk of dogs, I see no need to make equal
reference to the bitches.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">It is, if only in limited cases, so much
better in the Taal. When we refer to something applying to the community of Man
as a whole, we say "mens", but when the point applies only to a male of the
species, we say "man", or "mansmese"as opposed to "vroumense". Even
so a little juggling is usually in order. As a sex we are just different
enough for it to be a relevant or at least a pertinent consideration.Vive la
difference!</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">Yrs,</font></div>
<div><font size="2">Mark</font></div></div>
</div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>