<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 23 March 2008 - Volume 04<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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=========================================================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Mark Dreyer</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:mrdreyer@lantic.net">mrdreyer@lantic.net</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Resources" 2008.03.22 (10) [E]<br><br></span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Dear Ron & All:</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>Subject: LL-L
Resources<br><br>Ron's suggestion:<br><b><br></b><b>"Beyond the Pale"</b><br>A border-crossing guide for language
learners<br><br>How does this grab
everyone?<br><br>Jonny and Jacqueline have
suggested the following categories:</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> False
Friends</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> Words To Avoid</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> Words To Confuse</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> Vive la différence!</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Ron
Added:</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I'm clear about
"False Friends," not about the rest.<br><br>Could you explain?</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">My
offering:</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Words to
avoid:</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Necessary terminology
like 'shag' or 'liquidate' or 'gay' or 'kaffir' or 'bitch', that have acquired
metaphoric or pejorative connotations as a result of euphemism or
association. I do not insist they should not be appropriately used, but the
context aught to be clear & unambiguous in advance.</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Words to
confuse:</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Like 'pale' or
'gross' or 'fan' or 'batter' & my personal favourite, 'heavy plant
crossing', technical language or jargon or dialect, which confusion generated
can be enjoyed by everyone without offence, but for which clarity is necessary
in the technical context.</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Vive la
Difference!</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I also don't quite
understand:</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Do we mean this? Like
the elegant German term for your siblings, 'geschwistern'? People sound silly or
prim when they speak in conversational English about 'siblings', but what is the
alternative? 'My brothers & sisters'? - clumsy.</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Or this? Like 'hunk'
or 'stud muffin' or some other such meaty categorisation of attractive maledom?
& is it just me, or does it also seem to others that if a girl says this
sort of thing to or of a boy he preens, but if he says something of the
same sort about a girl her brothers go & sort him out?</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">What about the
difference between written false friends as spoken or written?</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Consider
this, 'The Gey Gordans' doesn't mean a major clan of Scotland is
homosexual... it means they're grim (I wouldn't raise the subject with
them) .</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Also, the difference
between 'onesh' & 'ones' in Hebrew, for example, is one diacritic point
often omitted, or missed by the novice. However the one means 'punish' & the
other means 'rape'. Once I totally wrecked the thread of a conversation that
way...</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Yrs,</div>
<div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Mark<br><br>----------<br><br>From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(200, 137, 0);">jonny</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:jonny.meibohm@arcor.de">jonny.meibohm@arcor.de</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span class="HcCDpe"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">LL-L "Resources" 2008.03.22 (10) [E]</span><br><br></span><div><span><font face="Courier New">Ron,</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New">a "Word To Avoid"
e.g. would be to use the word _bloody_ in a church.</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New">(I had done so as a
pure and innocent youngster who just had learned a new
expression and caused a "stormy" reaction amongst my English
companions!) Another example I guess is all the problem around _nigger_ and
_negroe_... </font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New">A "Word To Confuse"
could be the different and difficult spelling of _to pron<u>ou</u>nce_ vs.
_pron<u>u</u>nciation_, or the very strange pronunciation of _Worcester_ etc.;
and a real confusing pair for me is English _to dwell_ vs. LS _dweelen_,
meaning about 'to sway' (but these possibly are candidates for "False
Friends", too...).</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New">I also thought
about "Words To Love" (some of my favorites here would be the Dutch word _eeuw_
for 'century', [Dutch] LS _mekeer_ 'together' and the German word
_Wortschatz_ for 'treasury of words'); "Words To Hate" could be another rubric,
and my first choice here would be English _attitude_ as well as German
_Attitüde_- I hate them in the very depth of my heart because I am unable to get
a hand on them ;-)!</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New">Perhaps it might
not be exlusively single words but also idioms we could
collect.</font></span></div><div> </div>
<div align="left">Allerbest!</div>
<div align="left"> </div>
Jonny Meibohm<br></div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Utz H. Woltmann</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:uwoltmann@gmx.de">uwoltmann@gmx.de</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Resources" 2008.03.22 (11) [E]<br><br></span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="Ih2E3d">Orville Crane wrote:<br>
<br>
> A gift to me may be poison to you,<br>
> but poison will never be a gift to me.<br>
> The gift of poison just might be a pail of fish.<br>
<br>
</div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Hello Orville,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
this brings a little French play on words into my mind, which I learned</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
in a French lesson at school: 'un poisson sans boisson est poison', in</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
English something like 'a fish without a drink is poison'.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Best regards</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888">Utz H. Woltmann</font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>
From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">jonny</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:jonny.meibohm@arcor.de">jonny.meibohm@arcor.de</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span class="HcCDpe"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">LL-L "Resources" 2008.03.22 (11) [E]</span><br><br></span><div><span><font face="Courier New">Ron,</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New">'Beyond the Pale'
<u>sounds</u> really good- but what do you think about the chances for the
interested non-American user of Yahoo! to find out the background behind
this term? And I think you should bear in mind that we need according
expressions in other languages, too. </font></span></div>
<div> </div>
<div align="left">Allerbest!</div>
<div align="left"> </div>
Jonny Meibohm<br><br>----------<br><br><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: Resources<br><br>Thanks, guys!<br><br>Jonny, presenting this in more language versions than an English one would be to complicated and labor-intensive. I would do what I usually do: embed keywords in various languages that are unseen but respond to searches. However, I suggest that submitted "mini-blurbs" (see below) be in any language people choose.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Thanks for giving us your version, Mark. (And say hi to Ruth!) You wrote:</span><br><br><div style="margin-left: 40px;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Vive la
Difference!</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Do we mean this? Like
the elegant German term for your siblings, 'geschwistern'? People sound silly or
prim when they speak in conversational English about 'siblings', but what is the
alternative? 'My brothers & sisters'? - clumsy.</span><br><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"></span></div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">And here </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">la différence</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> vives even more! "Siblings" and the singular "sibling" are now quite ordinary in American English while they still sound "silly and prim" (academic? clinical?) in other Englishes. So there you get a case of </span><i>une différence</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> within one language as well. German </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Geschwister</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> (and possible borrowed Low Saxon </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Geswister</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">) only exists in plural form, as do German </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Eltern</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> and Low Saxon </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Öllern</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">, while English has the singular form </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">parent</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">, perhaps because it is a Romance loan. So, yes, these are interesting cases of difference.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I think we should make "False Friends" one category and list both spoken and written ones. It's important to keep things simple.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Jonny:</span><br><br></span><div style="margin-left: 40px;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font face="Courier New">Dutch word _eeuw_
for 'century'</font></span><br></div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">In Eastern Friesland and other western Low Saxon dialects also </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Eeu</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br></span><div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span><font face="Courier New">Another example I guess is all the problem around _nigger_ and
_negroe_...</font></span></div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">This is an import one to avoid in America, no matter how innocently it is said and how neutral the meaning is in one's own language. I have heard people say things like, "That's silly!" But that's a case of judgment of a history and culture other than one's own.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Perhaps another example is that of Americans often saying "Germanic" when they mean "German," and </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">vice versa</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">. While I do not join those Germans that threw the baby out with the bath water by avoiding the word "Germanic" in </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">any</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> contexts, I agree that Americans ought to learn that its use in place of "German" is not the best choice.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">So here we go:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"></span><ul style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<li>False Friends</li><li>Words To Avoid</li><li>
<div>Words To Confuse</div></li><li><div>Vive la différence!</div></li><li>Words I Love</li><li>Words I Hate<br></li></ul><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">"Words" here can be in the sense "expressions" and thus include idiomatic phrases.<br>
<br>Here's my proposal.<br><br>"False Friends" will simply be a list or series of lists of juxtapositions, without much explanation. E.g.:<br><br></span><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<table class="MsoTableGrid" style="border-collapse: collapse;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tbody><tr style="">
<td colspan="2" style="padding: 0in 5.4pt; background: rgb(204, 255, 204) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">German</span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></b></p>
</td>
<td colspan="2" style="padding: 0in 5.4pt; background: rgb(204, 255, 204) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; width: 188.95pt; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;" valign="top" width="252">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">English</span></b></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="">
<td style="padding: 0in 5.4pt; background: rgb(204, 255, 204) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Word</span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding: 0in 5.4pt; background: rgb(204, 255, 204) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Meaning</span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding: 0in 5.4pt; background: rgb(204, 255, 204) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Word</span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding: 0in 5.4pt; background: rgb(204, 255, 204) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; width: 126.4pt; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;" valign="top" width="169">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Meaning</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="">
<td style="padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">eventuell</span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">potential(ly), possibly, contingent</span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">eventual(ly)</span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="padding: 0in 5.4pt; width: 126.4pt;" valign="top" width="169">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">final(ly), ultimate(ly)</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="">
<td style="padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">aktuell</span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">current, newsworthy</span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">actual(ly)</span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="padding: 0in 5.4pt; width: 126.4pt;" valign="top" width="169">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">real(ly), true, truly, in fact</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody></table>
</div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>(These two examples happen to be two of the biggies "Continentals" tend to struggle with.)<br><br>All the other categories will be in the form of "mini-blurbs," like brief messages, "signed" with the names (or "anonymous") and places of those that submitted them; e.g., and I'm making this up, under "Words I Hate":<br>
<br></span><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span>What about English "attitude" and German <i>Attitüde</i>? I hate them in the very depth of my heart because I am unable to get
a handle on them ;-)!<br></span><div style="text-align: right;"><span><i>Jonny Meibohm, Bremerhaven, Germany, March 23, 2008</i><br></span></div></div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="text-align: right;">
<div style="text-align: left;"><span>Get the idea?</span><br><span></span></div></div></div><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="text-align: right;"><span></span></div></div>
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I think the "messages" would make it easier and more entertaining to read, and they would be more appropriate because personal opinions and feelings are involved.<br>
<br>We should limit it to Lowlands language varieties, though. In other words, at least one of the varieties in comparisons must be of Lowlands ilk.<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">So, folks, if you agree, keep 'em coming, either to the List or to me directly, and perhaps we can launch the presentation during the anniversary month. Send stuff under "Words" and in the body of your messages specify which of the categories each submission is for.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Thanks and regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br></span>