<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 29 March 2008 - Volume 02<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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=========================================================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Mike Morgan</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:mwmosaka@gmail.com">mwmosaka@gmail.com</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Grammar" 2008.03.28 (03) [E]<br><br></span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="Ih2E3d">
<div><span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Paul Finlow-Bates</span> <span><<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk" target="_blank">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>> wrote:</span> <br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">A
fairly common past tense construction among less educated people has
emerged in both Australia and England</blockquote></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Actually
I suspect it is more likely that the past tense construction, which has
been supressed among educated people by their fancy book-learnin', is
still fairly commonly used among the honest, hard-workin' folk of
Australia and England. ;-)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Theo Homan</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:theohoman@yahoo.com">theohoman@yahoo.com</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Grammar" 2008.03.28 (03) [E]<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> From: </span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:KarlRein@aol.com">KarlRein@aol.com</a><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.03.27 (05)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> This doesn't sound peculiar to me at all. Though</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> since the present perfect</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> is not used that much, [...]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Hi,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
It is my [humble] impression that the present perfect,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
which traditionally was used and preferred a lot in</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
the narrative style, is being replaced by the simple</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
past. Not only in US-English, but in the other</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Lowlands-varieties as well.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Now this topic is too broad for my head and</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
competence, but I know there will be Lowlands-friends</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
who will give it a thought.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="http://vr.gr/" target="_blank">vr.gr</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888">Theo Homan</font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(200, 137, 0);">jonny</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:jonny.meibohm@arcor.de">jonny.meibohm@arcor.de</a>></span><span class="lDACoc"></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span class="HcCDpe"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">LL-L "Grammar" 2008.03.28 (03) [E]</span><br><br></span><div><span><font face="Courier New">Dear
Heather,</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New">you
wrote:</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New"><div class="Ih2E3d">
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font color="#008080"><span>> </span>Reinhard/Ron wrote:<br> <span>>> </span>I have been "armed" with the challenge
"Would you say 'I have went'?" </font></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font color="#008080"><span>> </span>Can we be entirely sure that this doesn't
represent a really really old version of the verb "to wend" from which the
past tense 'went' was </font></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font color="#008080"><span>> </span>purloined and used instead of
'gang' as in go gang gone</font> </p>
</div><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span><font face="Courier New">An interesting thought! And
now I begin to see that this is <strong>not</strong> comparable with the
same grammatical construction in German, where you would have to say: 'Ich bin
ging' (correctly it is: 'Ich bin gegangen';
'go-went-gone'="gehen-ging-gegangen')- that would be really awful and
unimaginable. No one ever would use it. </font></span></p><div class="Ih2E3d">
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font color="#008080"><span>> </span>I wend I went I
have went my way home ??????????? </font></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font color="#008080"><span>> </span>... used mostly of <strong>cows
</strong>and drunks admittedly</font></p></div></font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New"><strong><em>Cows</em></strong>? Have you got drunken,
speaking cattle over there in Worcestershire ;-)?</font></span></div>
<div> </div>
<div align="left"><span>Friendly regards</span></div>
<div align="left"> </div>
Jonny Meibohm<br><br><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(204, 0, 96);">Diederik Masure</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:didimasure@hotmail.com">didimasure@hotmail.com</a>></span><span class="lDACoc"></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Grammar" 2008.03.28 (03) [E]<br></span><blockquote style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
</blockquote><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" face="Verdana">This
whole "I have went"-discussion reminded me of some other
'ungrammaticality' that I observe quite a lot among foreign students
here, even those who have quite a decent level of English. (for example
Germans seem to make this mistake quite a lot, French as well but to a
lesser extent?) </font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" face="Arial">I didn't had this or that, he didn't went there, we
didn't saw eachother for a long time! (or even more 'German' of course
"we didn't saw <em>"us"</em> for such a long time!":)) </font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" face="Arial">What would this be based on? and, are there also
genuine English varieties that use did + past tense instead of did +
infinitive? </font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" face="Arial">Diederik, foreign student with currently English as his "first language":)</font><br><br>----------<br><br><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: Grammar<br><br>Hey, Diederik!<br><br>I'm glad you pointed that out. I've come across the same thing, also among speakers of Spanish and Portuguese. Since, as Jonny points out indirectly with regard to German, it doesn't make sense considering their native languages, I have always just written (or wrote) it down to them not having studied their conjugation tables properly. Could it be as simple as that? <br>
<br>Could the said, possibly long-standing phenomenon among native speakers "below the radar" (of learned varieties) simply be indicative of a tendency toward grammatical simplification?<br><br>Many "strong" (irregular) verbs have been simplified to become "weak" (regular). This has resulted in choices, such as <i>lit</i> ~ <i>lighted</i>. New ones seem to pop up once in a while, and perhaps they will become official choices also. <br>
<br>Furthermore, I suspect that internationalization will bring about streamlined generalization of grammatical choices. However, considering the power of American media so far, this makes me wonder about cases where American English has irregular verbs and other Englishes do not, such as <i>dove</i> versus <i>dived</i>, and, <i>de facto</i>, <i>snuck</i> versus <i>sneaked</i>.*<br>
<br>*(Apparently, "snuck" began being used in the US in a jocular manner and has become the <i>de facto</i> correct form. Less informed Americans tend to believe my use of "sneaked" is a mistake.)<br><br>
I hope you keep having fun while studying diligently, Diederik. I sure can tell you are acquiring knowledge in leaps and bounds. Good for you!<br><br>Moin, Jonny!<br><br>My theory is that German, and also Dutch, can't go through such a change because of the use of mandatory <i>ge-</i> in the perfective participial forms, which English discarded a long time ago. But then again, many Northern Low Saxon varieties of Germany have discarded it as well (e.g. <i>ik ga - ik güng - ik bün~hev gaan</i>). In this case it may be mental reference to German that prevents such a shift.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br>