<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 07 April 2008 - Volume 02<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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=========================================================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc.</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:roger.thijs@euro-support.be">roger.thijs@euro-support.be</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Romance connections" 2008.04.06 (05) [D/E]<br><br></span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="Ih2E3d">
<div><font size="2">>
From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <</font><a href="mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL" target="_blank"><font size="2">ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL</font></a><font size="2">></font><br><font size="2">> Subject: LL-L "Events"
2008.04.06 (02) [E]<br>> Beste Roger,<br>> There must be more ways to
recognize Belgians than their pronunciation of<br>W, I hope, because there are
very few words in French with that consonant.<br>> The funny thing here is
that the Dutch Dutch (from the<br>Netherlands, "Holland")
pronounce the W in words like Wallonië differently<br>than the Belgian Dutch
("Northerners"), although not with V as the French<br>French, but neither with the
English and Belgian bilabial W. Something in<br>between those.<br>> But, French spoken by
Flemish and Dutch by Walloons/Brusselers must have<br>some more interesting features.
Can you or someone else tell us more about<br>this?</font></div>
<div> </div>
</div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Belgian French is generally much closer to standard
French,</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">than </font> <font size="2">Belgian Dutch is to Standard
Dutch.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">People from the Liège area have a special singing rithm
(<em>cf. minister Dardenne, drunk on YouTube </em><a href="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0dguKikz7Ec" target="_blank">http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0dguKikz7Ec</a>), that
cought me somehow, since I'm often asked whether I come from Liège. Belgian
people often put their accents within a phrase differently from French
people.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Some (Central and Northern) French people have a nazalization
with much reverberance, which Belgians often do not have that
strong.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Let me just tell about my own experience.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">My first language was West-Limburgish (Lonerlands from
Vliermaal, but just East of the Panninger line: sch becoming sj).</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Since I did part of my primary school in Tongeen, my second
language was Tongerlands-Limburgish, with a sound that shared some features with
East-Walloon from Liège</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">My third language was (Belgian) Dutch, called "opte letter" or
"goed Vlaams";</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">My fourth language was French (at school from the age of 10
on)</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">At that time French was still a current language in the decent
shops of the main streets of Hasselt and Tongeren (fifties). </font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">When we got TV, it was easier for us to follow programs at the
ARD / ZDF than understanding Rudi Carell, when he still worked for the Dutch
TV.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">So far about the background.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">I did one of my engineering years at Liège university. In
their program they had one mandatory hour of a foreign language. Foreigners
could choose French, and I was allowed to take French
pronounciation.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">My teachers name was Munot, the assistant of Professor
Warnant, the author of the "Dictionnaire de la Prononciation française" (in 2
vol).</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Our manual was "Fouché, Traité de la Prononciation française",
1959, Klincksieck, Paris, lxiii + 529 pp.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">I used it for exercising <strong>e-muet
patterns</strong></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">e.g. one of many patterns
0<strong>11</strong>0<strong>11</strong>0<strong>1</strong></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">
parc' qu<strong>e</strong> j<strong>e</strong> n' l<strong>e</strong>
r<strong>e</strong>d'v<strong>e</strong>nais pas...</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">an other
0<strong>1</strong>0<strong>1</strong>0<strong>1</strong>0<strong>11</strong></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">
et d' c<strong>e</strong> qu' j<strong>e</strong> n' t<strong>e</strong> l'
r<strong>e</strong>pr<strong>e</strong>nais pas</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">' representing skipped e-muets when pronouncing</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">The standard was based on the language of the "Parisiens
cultivés" of the "<em>I dont remember which</em>" arrondissement of
Paris.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">We were with 3 (a Spanish lady, a Mexican guy and myself)
for 30 evening lessons, so it was almost private teaching.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">I had particurely to cultivate my "s". My lips were rounded
and had too much protuberance, and I produced too much air; I had to learn to
pronounce it (before a mirror) with a complete flat line at lip splits and hold
my tongue down. Therefore I got a flat wood, similar to the one one finds in ice
cream but a bit broader. It toke me several weeks before I got an acceptable
result.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">This was just my personal experience.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">As to my observation people from the Netherlands have
particularily problems with the <strong>nasalization of
vowels</strong>.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">In his dictionary Warnant lists some
difficulties:</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">for speakers of Dutch</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><a href="http://www.euro-support.be/temp/nl.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.euro-support.be/temp/nl.jpg</a></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">for speakers of English</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><a href="http://www.euro-support.be/temp/uk.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.euro-support.be/temp/uk.jpg</a></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">for speakers of German</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><a href="http://www.euro-support.be/temp/ger.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.euro-support.be/temp/ger.jpg</a></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Regards,</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Roger<br><br>----------<br><br></font>From: <span class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Diederik Masure</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:didimasure@hotmail.com">didimasure@hotmail.com</a>></span></span><br>
Subject: <span class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Romance connections" 2008.04.06 (05) [D/E]<br></span><blockquote><div class="Ih2E3d">>>From: <span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Roland Desnerck</span> <span><<a href="mailto:desnerck.roland@skynet.be" target="_blank">desnerck.roland@skynet.be</a>></span><br>
>>Subject: LL-L "Events" 2008.04.05 (08) [D/E]<br>>><br>
<div><font size="2">>>Beste Ron, Roger, Luc en alle anderen,</font></div>
<div><font size="2">>>Het
Picardisch is een romaanse taal, geen dialect! Het werd in de
middeleeuwen ook in teksten gebruikt, o.m. vaak door de
kroniekschrijver <br>>>Comines. Het wordt (werd) gesproken in
een vrij ruim gebied buiten het Picardië dat die naam sinds de 15de
eeuw verdiende. Er waren in dat <br>>>gebied, de grens tussen
Vlaanderen, Normandië en Ile de France, vele burchten (zoals te
Lucheux), vele huurlingen; hun wapen de piek", <br>>>vandaar
Picard en Picardie. In een belangrijk deel van Artesië (Artois) en in
het westelijke deel van Belgisch Henegouwen (en ook Frans
>>Henegouwen) wordt (werd) deze taal gesproken. Er zijn nog
enkele schrijvers die deze taal gebruiken. Ik bezit het boekje "Les
Vints d' <br>>>Amont" met teksten van vele schrijvers in het Picardisch. Mag niet verward worden met Waals.</font></div>
<div><font size="2">>>Deze
taal kent een ouder stadium dan het Frans: de oude "c" is niet "ch"
geworden, de oude "g" is niet "j" geworden, de "eau" is niet o <br>>>geworden.</font></div>
<div><font size="2">>>Ik
heb verschillende spellingen gevonden. Ik schrijf hieronder zoals ik de
taal gehoord heb, voornamelijk in de streek van Amiens, tussen <br>>>Authie
en Somme, en meestal te Naours, gekend voor zijn ondergronds
vluchtdorp, het grootste van Frankrijk. Daar had ik een kameraad die <br>>>de taal nog helemaal beheerste, spijtig genoeg is hij een twintig jaar geleden overleden.</font></div>
<div> </div>
</div></blockquote><div>De traditionele Vlaamse namen van de vermelde plaatsen: <br>l'Authie: de Otie<br>la Somme: de Zomme/de Zoom</div>
<div>Valencienne: Valencijn/Valensijn</div>
<div>(volgens <a href="http://www.roepstem.net/vlaanderen.html" target="_blank">http://www.roepstem.net/vlaanderen.html</a>)</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Weet iemand of de andere namen ook een Vlaams equivalent hebben?</div>
<div>Amont
<div>Amiens<br>Naours</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Diederik<br></div></div></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">