<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 20 April 2008 - Volume 07<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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=========================================================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Paul Finlow-Bates</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Etymology" 2008.04.19 (05) [E]<br></span><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<div style="text-align: center;"> <div style="text-align: left;"><div class="Ih2E3d">From: <span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Daniel Prohaska</span> <span><<a href="mailto:daniel@ryan-prohaska.com" target="_blank">daniel@ryan-prohaska.com</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span>LL-L "Etymology" 2008.04.19 (03) [E]<br></span> <div><b><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="EN-GB">Reinhard</span></font></b></div> </div>
<div><b><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="EN-GB">I've
got a simpler explanation. I suspect "firth" is from the ON dative
<firði>, which is often found in place names because locative
prepositions <á> and <Ã> take the dative.</span></font></b></div><div><div><span id="q_1196d450c6d0af1c_3" class="WQ9l9c">- Show quoted text -</span></div><div class="Wj3C7c"> <div><b><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="EN-GB">Dan</span></font></b></div>
<div> <div style="margin-left: 40px;"><font size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-GB">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>Subject: Etymology</span></font></div>
<div style="margin-left: 40px;"><font size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-GB">"You're more than welcome, Sandy, as far as I am concerned.<br>>>"Firth" is from "fjord"? The things you learn!<<</span></font></div>
<div style="margin-left: 40px;"><font size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Well, Old Norse has <i>fjorðr </i>(also spelled <i>fj</i></span></font><i>ǫ</i><span lang="EN-GB"><i>rðr</i>, pronounced [</span><span lang="EN-GB">ˈfj</span><span lang="EN-GB">ɔ</span><span lang="EN-GB">rðr</span>̩<span lang="EN-GB">], > Modern Icelandic <i>fjörður</i>). There's a fricative in there, hence the "th".</span></div>
<div style="margin-left: 40px;"><font size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-GB">My theory is that the donor variety ("Old Danish"? "Old Norwegian"?), which may have already cast off the old <i>-r</i> (or else people recognized it as a foreign morpheme), had an umlauted version (*<i>fjörð</i> [fjœrð] or *<i>f(j)yrð</i> [f(j)</span></font><span lang="EN-GB">ʏ</span><span lang="EN-GB">rð]). This might explain the vowel in "firth".</span></div>
<div style="margin-left: 40px;"><font size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron"</span></font></div></div>----------<br><br>From: <span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Diederik Masure</span> <span><<a href="mailto:didimasure@hotmail.com" target="_blank">didimasure@hotmail.com</a></span><br>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.04.19 (03) [E]<br><br> <div>>>Ron wrote: <br>>>My theory is that the donor variety ("Old Danish"? "Old Norwegian"?), which may have already cast off the old
<i>-r</i> (or else people recognized it <br>>>as a foreign <i>morpheme),</i> had an umlauted version (*<i>fjörð</i> [fjœrð] or *<i>f(j)yrð</i> [f(j)ʏrð]). This might explain the vowel in "firth".<br><br>
</div>None
of the modern languages umlauts the /ö/ (o-with-tail) here though, and
although /j9/ usually became /jö/ by progressive umlaut in continental
Scandinavian, this did often not happen before /r/. (instead, usually
the vowel got lengthened). Both Swedish, Danish and Norwegian still
have 'fjord'. (eg. also "hjort", deer and not hjört)<br><br>Couldn't it rather be due to the inflected forms? fjordhr is an u-stem, and thus the paradigm goes as follows: (N-A-G-D)<br>Fjör<i>dh</i>r<br>
fjördh<br>fjardhar<br>firdhi<br><br>firdhir<br>fjördhu > firdhi <br>fjardha<br>fjördhum<br> <br>where ö is o-with-tail and dh is "eth"<br></div></div>the -i- in English could come from the plural, or from the dative (which was used often, f.ex. Ã firdhi, in the fjord)<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"> <br>Diederik<br><br>----------<br><br><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>> <br>
Subject: Etymology<br><br>That's great, guys! Most convincing! Thanks a lot.<br><br>It's also great to see our Dan being enticed into the open once in a while.<br><br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron</span></font><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote> <div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I
assume all these words ultimately relate to English "ford" (which was
vathr in ON, "wath" in many northern English place names - and related
to "wade").</div> <div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div> <div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Paul Finlow-Bates</div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>> <br>
Subject: Etymology<br><br>Elsie,<br><br>Under "Games" you asked if "chow" the dog has anything to do with "chow" the food.<br><br>The quick answer is "yes." <br><br>This type of dog (Chinese 鬆獅犬, Mandarin <i>sōngshī quǎn</i> "fluffy lion dog") -- which, incidentally, has been shown to be the oldest surviving breed of dog according to DNA research -- has been considered edible in China ever since it arrived there from Siberia via Manchuria. <br>
<br>"Chow" or actually "chow chow," is derived from China Coast Pidgin where it means "food" or "eating." Many believe the word came from 雑 'mixed' (Mandarin <i>zá</i>, Cantonese <i>zaap</i>, as in "chop suei", something like "assorted scraps"). I'm more inclined to assume "chow" came from Chinese 炒 'fry', 'stir-fry' (Mandarin <i>chǎo</i>, Cantonese <i>cǎao</i>, as in "chow mian" 'stir-fried noodles'). <br>
<br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron</span></font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">