<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 16 May 2008 - Volume 01<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(200, 137, 0);">Paul Finlow-Bates</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Semantics" 2008.05.15 (02) [E]<br><br></span><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>Subject: Semantics<br><br>Dear Lowlanders,<br><br>I
find the phenomenon of semantic shift quite fascinating and feel that
more attention ought to be paid to it in etymological research.<br><br>I
wonder if you agree with me about the following current shift
development in English and if you can provide more information. In
particular, I am interested to know whether or not this shift has
spread from US English to other dialects in the meantime, which would
not be surprising given the power of the US media.<br><br>It seems that the countable noun "man" (as distinct from uncountable and article-less "man" = "mankind") is retreating. <br><br>Its
use as "adult male human" seems to be retreating to scientific and
other "serious" areas, styles and registers. In casual speech, "guy"
seems to be the usual word of choice (not counting what seem to be
generational fashion words, currently "dude").<br><br>In polite speech
(in which "guy" would be considered too casual), quite typically heard
in the news, is "gentleman". What fascinates me about this use is that,
while it belongs to an elevated mode of speech, this word has lost its
original connotation of "distinguished" and "well-mannered" (originally
"belonging to gentility"). Because of this, people that, like me,
remember its special use, tend to find it rather strange that
"gentleman" is now being used to refer to men that are anything but
gentle or genteel, in the news for instance referring to murderers and
other sorts of convicted criminals. I believe this is a case in which
people have ceased to etymologically analyze a word, where it has
simply become a series of sounds and letters.<br><br>On
the other hand, "lady" seems to have pretty much fallen by the wayside
in the US, at least in the northern states. I get strange looks when I
use it occasionally. Apparently, the word to use is "woman," even
though this usage would have been considered impolite in the past. So
we are dealing with asymmetry here: "woman" = yes, "man" = limited,
"lady" = no, "gentleman" = yes.<br><br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br></blockquote> <div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>In
Britain "man" as male human is pretty much alive and kicking -
"witnesses said they saw two men running into a side steet..."; "Police
have arrested a 20 year old man and a 19 year old woman on suspicion of
murder.." etc. "Gentleman" would certainly not be used by our media in
those cases.</div> <div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div> <div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Also generally: "Studies showed that men earned up to 20% more than women doing the same or similar jobs..." </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div> <div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">"Gentleman"
and "lady" are more likely to be used when referring to a person in
their presence: "I think the umbrella belongs to this gentleman..."
"This lady was in the queue before me..." And on toilet doors!</div> <div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div> <div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">But note that mediaeval "gentlemen" - aristocrats - were certainly anything but gentle. Trained killers for the most part.</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888"> <div>Paul<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">----------</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">From: </span><span class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Brooks, Mark</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:mark.brooks@twc.state.tx.us">mark.brooks@twc.state.tx.us</a>></span></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Subject: </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Semantics" 2008.05.15 (06) [E]</span></div> </font><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span>Ron asked: "I
wonder if you agree with me about the following current shift development in
English and if you can provide more information."</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span>Yes, I agree
that the shift has already happened in the U.S. Let me give you my take on
why. Sort of my "folk semantic" view. I've always reckoned that "man" became a
disparaged term, because it has taken on a connotation of a sexist, chauvinist
male. Likewise, many women I work with use the word "man" disparagingly when
accusing a male of not getting it, when they talk to one another. They'll say
things like, "Oh, that's just like a man to say that," or "Only a man would ask
that question." I work in a department with a majority of females, so they
sometimes think of me as "one of the girls" and say quite rude things about men
in general. I often jokingly remind them that I haven't undergone a sex change
operation ;-)</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span>Now, about "woman."
I think "lady" connotes a female who "knew her place" so to speak. In other
words, a lady would be someone who couldn't think very clearly and belonged at
home in the kitchen. As in, "my little lady." Notice how just recently
Senator Obama has gotten in hot water for referring to a female as "sweetie."
Woman, on the other hand, connotes someone who can think for herself and
chooses her place in society. I have the notion that to say "I talked to a
lady on the bus…" sounds almost dismissive. Whereas, "I talked to a woman on
the bus…" sounds like she deserves respect. </span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span>At least,
that's how I see it from Austin, Texas. Austin is a special case though.
Austin is to Texas as California is to the U.S. In other words, it's a liberal
island in a sea of conservativism.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span>Regards,</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span>Mark Brooks</span></p><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font color="#888888"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">From: </span></font></font><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Mike Morgan</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:mwmosaka@gmail.com">mwmosaka@gmail.com</a>></span></span><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font color="#888888"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span class="HcCDpe"><span class="lDACoc"></span></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Subject: </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Semantics" 2008.05.15 (06) [E]<br><br></span></font></font><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Here in Bombay, when speaking English (and also when speaking</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Hinglish) the common way to refer to an adult male (either 3rd person</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
reference OR vocative) whose name you do not know is "uncle".</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
While this does not bother me MOST the time (it MAY be the one most</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
common way world-wide for kids to refer to males of their parents'</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
generation or older), when the bus conductor, himself a gentleman of</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
some age, addresses me as "uncle", it DOES ruffle my linguistic</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
feathers (and my age sensitivity!) a bit.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
MWM || マイク || Мика || माईक || માઈક || ਮਾਈਕ</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
================</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Dr Michael W Morgan</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Managing Director</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Ishara Foundation</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Mumbai (Bombay), India</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
++++++++++++++++</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
माईकल मोर्गन (पी.एच.डी.)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
मेनेजिंग डॉयरेक्टर</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
ईशारा फॉउंडेशन (मुंबई )</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
++++++++++++++++</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
茂流岸マイク(言語学博士)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
イシャラ基金の専務理事・事務局長</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
ムンバイ(ボンベイ)、インド</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: Semantics<br><br>Thanks a lot, guys!<br><br>Paul, your examples pretty much tally with the way they would be in US American media reports. So we need to tweak the description to show that in more formal (public report-style) statements "man" is still used in that way. In a less formal (though not casual) style, "gentleman" tends to be the choice now. This includes for instance members of the public being interviewed in the media or by the police (e.g. "I saw those two gentlemen incessantly beating another."). The feminine equivalent seems to be "woman".<br>
<br>Mark, I take it Indian English "uncle" for "man" is a calque (i.e. loan translation) from one or more local languages (where it is supposedly polite). Or? What's the feminine equivalent? "Aunt"? From your description I takeit that "uncle" is also a form of address, something like "sir" elsewhere.<br>
<br>I can relate to your feeling of unease about being called "uncle" especially by people that are your seniors. This reminds me of one of my three pet peeves in Indonesia (a country I absolutely loved otherwise). As I mentioned before, everyone, irrespective of age, class and ethnic background, referred to and addressed me with <i>oom</i>, Dutch for "uncle", consistently when speaking Indonesian, sometimes also when speaking English or Dutch. (I had studied Malay of Malaysia and had an easy time understanding and "faking" Indonesian.) I was in my thirties then. What irked me about it was the fact that <i>oom</i> was only used for men of Caucasian European background, was thus a specific leftover from the Dutch colonial era several decades after it ended. I felt most uncomfortable when older people addressed me with <i>oom</i>, including for instance <i>penghulu</i> (village chiefs), people locally held in highest esteem (while I was a wandering student traveling on a shoestring). And there was nothing I could do about it despite the negative semantic connotations in my mind. However, a Tamil Australian I met (who also spoke Indonesian) was called all sorts of things except <i>oom</i>. <br>
<br>When it comes to social level, there are significant differences between German on the one hand and authentic Low Saxon of Germany on the other hand. <i>Mann</i> for "man" (in some contexts polite <i>Herr</i>) is predominant in Standard German, while Low Saxon <i>man</i> (<i>Mann</i>) usually sounds overly formal. In German, <i>Kerl</i> sounds negative, while Low Saxon <i>keyrl</i> (<i>Keerl</i> ~ <i>Kierl</i>) is quite ordinary and neutral. In Northern German, presumably from Low Saxon via Missingsch, <i>Kerl</i> can be used positively if it is qualified as such; e.g. <i>Er ist ein lieber Kerl</i> 'He's a nice guy', better even with a diminutive: <i>Er ist ein liebes Kerlchen</i>. I believe this usage has spread south now. For "men" in general, Low Saxon tends to use <i>mansluyd'</i> (<i>Mannslüüd'</i>), literally "men folk," where you would use <i>Männer</i> 'men' in German (with the feminine equivalents <i>vrouensluyd'</i> ~ <i>vruenluyd'</i> ~ <i>vrugensluyd' </i>(<i>Froonsl</i></span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">ü</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><i>üd' </i><i>~ </i><i>Fruunsl</i></span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">ü</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><i>üd' ~ </i><i>Frugensl</i></span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">ü</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><i>üd'</i> ) in Low Saxon and <i>Frauen</i> in German. Specific men as a group, however, tend to be referred to as <i>keyrls</i> (<i>Keerl</i>s ~ <i>Kierl</i>s) in Low Saxon, <i>Männer</i> (polite <i>Herren</i>) in German. Low Saxon <i>mans</i> (<i>Manns</i>) 'men' exists, as does feminine <i>vrouens</i> ~ <i>vruen </i>~ <i>vrugens </i>(<i>Froons</i><i> </i><i>~ </i><i>Fruuns </i><i>~ </i><i>Frugens</i>) 'women', but they seem to be used very rarely, unless they are used to denote 'husbands' and 'wives' respectively. Younger unmarried women are referred to as <i>deyrn</i> (<i>Deern</i> ~ <i>Diern</i>) 'girl' (plural <i>deyrns</i> (<i>Deerns</i> ~ <i>Dierns</i>), which within the right context can also mean 'girlfriend (of a male)', in this context the feminine equivalent of masculine <i>keyrl</i> (<i>Keerl</i> ~ <i>Kierl</i>). Thus, <i>er keyrl</i> (<i>ehr Keerl ~ ehr Kierl</i>) 'her boyfriend' is pretty much the equivalent of England English "her fella". If I wanted to translate Tammy Wynette's country song "Stand by Your Man", I would also use more general <i>keyrl</i>: <i>Sta dyn keyrl by</i> (<i>Stah dien Keerl bi</i>), as opposed to <i>Sta dyn man by</i> (<i>Stah dien Mann bi</i>) 'Stand by Your Husband'.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br><br>P.S.: Mark:<br><br></span><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span>I work in a department with a majority of females, so they
sometimes think of me as "one of the girls" and say quite rude things about men
in general. I often jokingly remind them that I haven't undergone a sex change
operation ;-)</span><br><span></span></div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>When that happens to me I usually say something like "Sure! Go ahead and consider me one of the girls!" </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">