<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 19 May 2008 - Volume 03<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Luc Hellinckx</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "History"<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Beste Ron,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
You wrote:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<blockquote style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" type="cite">What
about a possible Frisian element? Erstwhile Frisian-speaking presence
is definitely attested all the way from what is now Belgium to Land
Wursten at the southern end of the mouth of the Elbe, on the island of
Heligoland off the mouth of the Elbe and then again north of
Dithmarschen into the southwest of what is now the Danish part of the
Jutland Peninsula. Going by a place name like Büsum, I wonder if there
used to be some Frisian presence in Dithmarschen as well.<br>
</blockquote><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Like Jonny wrote, I believe "water" is truly the main shaping force of
the Lowlands. The North Sea must have left a lasting impression on the
character of these coast dwellers.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
We're dealing with low lying lands here, so dikes are first-rate
lifesavers. Building dikes and maintaining them is not the work of a
loner, it requires team spirit and perseverance. What you called
"conservatism" in one of your messages, may actually be the flipside of
"perseverance". Qualities I seem to find here in Belgium very prevalent
in the West and less in the East.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
That same sea (no matter how dangerous it can be at times), will never
limit your view though. A sense of "freedom" is always at hand, half
the world is litterally yours (180°). This makes for venturesome folks
(putting it mildly <span> ;-) </span>).
Hence the knee-jerk reaction to whatever comes from "outside". Be it
Franks, religion, whatever. Famous Flemish saying goes like: "What we
can achieve ourselves, nobody else can do better".</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Furthermore, land reclamation in Flanders and Zeeland, was mainly
organized by Flemish monks.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
This very fact, the act of creating your own land (and future), seems
to have triggered a firm belief in the effect of (government) policies
on (social) change (in Dutch, more general: "de maakbaarheid van de
maatschappij"). Fatalism is a big no-no in the (lowest) Lowlands. The
sky's the limit.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Kind greetings,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888">
<br>
Luc Hellinckx</font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Ben J. Bloomgren</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:ben.j.bloomgren@gmail.com">ben.j.bloomgren@gmail.com</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "History" 2008.05.19 (02) [E]<br><br></span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" id="1erk" class="ArwC7c ckChnd">
<div><div class="Ih2E3d">
<div>We need to bear in mind that with loss of independence
Hamburg, which previously seems to have seen only minor Saxon and pre-Saxon
settlements, came to be set up as a front-line post of Frankish power. It
served as a spearhead of Frankish interests at the edge of both Jutish Viking
and Slavic Obodrite power domains, as a trading post as well as as a jump-off
point for Christian missionaries to surrounding Saxon, Viking and Slavic
communities, later to the whole of Scandinavia. It therefore came to be
periodically sacked and destroyed by Vikings and Obodrites.<br><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2"> </font></span></div>
</div><div><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2">Ron
and all,</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2">Where
was, as far as we know, the original homeland of the franks? I am not talking
about the Urheimat back in Iran/Anatolia. As far as the Germanic territories,
where did they start from?</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div><font color="#888888">
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2">Ben</font> <br></span></div></font></div>
</div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">----------<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: History<br><br><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">I quite agree, Luc, and you certainly touched upon the stuff early Lowlanders were made of, many still are. First of all, that's why I said, "</span></span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">there is a long tradition of what outsiders tend to consider conservatism." But "conservatism" alone can also be said without value judgment or with positive value judgment, after all. <br>
<br> What I was driving at was that these early, presumably tough Saxon <i>Nordliudi</i>, living in the earliest known Saxon settlement area where Elbe meets North Sea, may have done all they could to preserve their proven way of life even after Saxon defeat and consequent encroachment of Frankish values via nearby settlements, such as <i>Hammaburg</i> (Hamburg) and <i>Stethe</i> (Stade) turned into garrisons of Franco-Roman power. Furthermore, I had in mind the question if this foundation of tough survivalist tradition in conjunction with resentment toward Frankish encroachment somehow survived over the centuries, where the old "Frankish" came to be transferred to "Prussian" and then "mainstream German," which has been gradually smothering (Saxon >) North German language and culture. If this is to be answered in the affirmative, I would go as far as postulating that they have this in common with today's remaining identified Frisians both in Germany and the Netherlands (including those of Eastern Friesland and Emsland who took on Low Saxon language). Lastly, I was wondering if, most likely to a lower degree, this applies to "typical" North Germans more generally. People in Germany's extreme north and extreme south are said to be the most reluctant Germans, and the reasons for this may well go back very far.<br>
<br>Ben, as far as I know, the earliest known Franks lived along the Lower Rhine. Their eastern neighbors were Saxons and their northern and western neighbors were Frisians. I'm sure others will be able to tell you more. Oh, and yes, the name France (< Latin <i>Francia</i>) is said to refer to the land of the Franks. However, some have claimed that <i>frank</i> was just Germanic for "free" and that France didn't get its name from <i>the</i> Franks. Sure, there where some "real" Franks there, but the majority of the population was Celtic with Roman and other Germanic admixtures.<br>
<br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">