<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 06 June 2008 - Volume 07<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong </span><span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:Dutchmatters@comcast.net">Dutchmatters@comcast.net</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.06 (05) [A/E]<br></span><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt; margin-left: 1in; text-indent: -0.25in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">1.<font size="1"><span>
</span></font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL">Dutch: Wat voor hond is
dat?<br>
</span></font></p><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="Ih2E3d"><font color="black" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;" lang="NL">Low Saxon: Wat vör eyn
(~ 'n) hund is dat? (Wat för een (~ 'n) Hund is dat?)<br>
German: Was für ein Hund ist das?</span></font></div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt; margin-left: 1in; text-indent: -0.25in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">2.<font size="1"><span>
</span></font></span></font><font size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="NL">Dutch: Wat is dat voor een hond?<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
<font color="black"><span style="color: black;">Low Saxon: Wat is dat vör eyn (~
'n) hund? (Wat is dat för een (~ 'n) Hund?)</span></font></div></span></font></p><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="Ih2E3d"><font color="black" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;" lang="NL">German: Was ist das für
ein Hund?</span></font></div>
<p style="margin-left: 1in; text-indent: -0.25in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font color="black" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;">3.<font size="1"><span>
</span></font></span></font><font color="black" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;" lang="NL">Dutch: Wat is <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">dat </span></b>voor een hond?<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
Low Saxon: Wat is <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">dat </span></b>vör eyn (~
'n) hund? (Wat is <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">dat </span></b>för een (~
'n) Hund?)</div></span></font></p><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="Ih2E3d"><font color="black"><span style="color: black;"></span></font><font color="black" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;" lang="NL">German: Was ist <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">das </span></b>für ein Hund?</span></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="Ih2E3d">
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">These can also use the cognate of
"then" to emphasize wonderment:</span></font></p>
</div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt; margin-left: 1in; text-indent: -0.25in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">1.<font size="1"><span>
</span></font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL">Dutch: Wat voor hond is
dat?<br>
</span></font></p><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="Ih2E3d"><font color="black" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;" lang="NL">Low Saxon: Wat vör eyn
(~ 'n) hund is den dat? (Wat för een (~ 'n) Hund is denn dat?)<br>
German: Was für ein Hund ist denn das?</span></font></div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt; margin-left: 1in; text-indent: -0.25in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">2.<font size="1"><span>
</span></font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL">Dutch: Wat voor hond is
dat?<br>
</span></font></p><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="Ih2E3d"><font color="black" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;" lang="NL">Low Saxon: Wat vör eyn
(~ 'n) hund is <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">dat </span></b>den? (Wat för
een (~ 'n) Hund is <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">dat </span></b>denn?)<br>
German: Was für ein Hund ist <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">das </span></b>denn?</span></font></div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt; margin-left: 1in; text-indent: -0.25in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">3.<font size="1"><span>
</span></font></span></font><font size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="NL">Dutch: Wat is dat voor een hond?<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
<font color="black"><span style="color: black;">Low Saxon: Wat is den dat vör eyn
(~ 'n) hund? (Wat is denn dat för een (~ 'n) Hund?)</span></font></div></span></font></p><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="Ih2E3d"><font color="black" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;" lang="NL">German: Was ist denn das
für ein Hund?</span></font></div>
<p style="margin-left: 1in; text-indent: -0.25in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font color="black" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;">4.<font size="1"><span>
</span></font></span></font><font color="black" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;" lang="NL">Dutch: Wat is <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">dat </span></b>voor een hond?<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
Low Saxon: Wat is <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">dat </span></b>den vör eyn
(~ 'n) hund? (Wat is dat denn för een (~ 'n) Hund?)</div></span></font></p><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="Ih2E3d"><font color="black"><span style="color: black;"></span></font><font color="black" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;" lang="NL">German: Was ist <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">das </span></b>denn für ein Hund?</span></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="Ih2E3d">
<p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 12pt; margin-left: 0.5in;"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Interesting
thought there, Luc!<br>
<br>
And I am rather suspecting something related to expressions such as "She
used an old shirt for a rag," or "They have a gander for a
watchdog." So if you say, "What for a dog is that?" (if you
could say it in English) it would mean something like "What kind of lame
excuse for a dog is that?!"<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron</span></font></p>
</div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">Hallo
Ron en Luc. Since we are all going to the dogs I might as well add some more
fuel to the fire:</span></font></p><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="Ih2E3d">
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">1<sup>st</sup>
Ron says:</span></font></p>
<p><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">These can also use the cognate of "then" to
emphasize wonderment:</span></font></p>
<ol start="1" type="1"><li style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL">Dutch: Wat voor hond is dat?<br>
</span></font><font color="black" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;" lang="NL">Low Saxon: Wat vör
eyn (~ 'n) hund is den dat? </span></font><font color="black" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;" lang="DE">(Wat för een (~ 'n) Hund is denn dat?)<br>
German: Was für ein Hund ist denn das?</span></font></li><li style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL">Dutch: Wat voor hond is dat?<br>
</span></font><font color="black" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;" lang="NL">Low Saxon: Wat vör
eyn (~ 'n) hund is <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">dat </span></b>den? </span></font><font color="black" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;" lang="DE">(Wat för een (~ 'n) Hund is <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">dat </span></b>denn?)<br>
German: Was für ein Hund ist <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">das </span></b>denn?</span></font></li><li style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="NL">Dutch: Wat is dat voor
een hond?<br>
<font color="black"><span style="color: black;">Low Saxon: Wat is den dat vör
eyn (~ 'n) hund? </span></font></span></font><font color="black" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;" lang="DE">(Wat is denn dat för een (~ 'n) Hund?)</span></font><br>
<font color="black" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;" lang="DE">German: Was ist
denn das für ein Hund?</span></font></li><li style="color: black;"><font color="black" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="NL">Dutch: Wat is <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">dat </span></b>voor een hond?<br>
Low Saxon: Wat is <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">dat </span></b>den vör
eyn (~ 'n) hund? </span></font><font size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="DE">(Wat is dat denn för een (~ 'n)
Hund?)</span></font><br>
<font size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="DE">German: Was ist <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">das </span></b>denn
für ein Hund?</span></font> </li></ol>
</div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">Indeed
Dutch does this too, but if I say "Wat is dat dan voor een hond?" I
am not only wondering, I am also excluding this particular animal from the rest
of the pack. F.i. if there is one Labradoodle in a kennel full of Poodles. Am I
right in assuming that the same mechanism holds for Low Saxon and even German
for that matter?</span></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">2<sup>nd</sup>,
Luc, you say:</span></font></p><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="Ih2E3d">
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">The only difference with continental
Germanic seems to be that Dutch and German also use the phrase in a question or
a suggestion like "Wat voor een hond is dat?".<br>
<br>
Could this be the result of continental Germanic having a less strict word
order than English? Or would it rather be typical of older/archaic language? I
have no clue, but I do know that in my native dialect anyway, word order is
much more loosely defined than in standard Dutch. Probably because dialect is
mainly spoken, and speech is more subject to rhythm than written language.</span></font></p>
</div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font color="blue" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: blue;">I think
that you are right when you say that Dutch has a less strict word order than
English, but I am not so sure about German. However, I do agree with your
notion that speech is more subject to shifts in emphasis and rhythm which give
it a more subtle flavor. It is in this respect that dialects can shine as do "street
languages" of all kinds. It is in the process of writing that we
stultify the language through lack of these mechanisms. A lot of written Dutch
is horribly contorted, especially the language of officiaIdom. I do not know
about you, but I am certainly more eloquent when speaking than when writing. Of
course this difficulty is partially alleviated by the use of idiomatic
expression to give the language more color, still I always admire the
discipline of those writers that manage to get their ideas across without
becoming too colloquial. It is horribly difficult to use one's hands to
write the language instead of speaking with them.</span></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font color="blue" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: blue;">In that
respect it must be interesting to be bilingual, like you probably are, in two
languages; one of which depends on grammar and the other which depends on
idioms to vary color and emotion. But that is a horse of an entirely different
color.</span></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font color="blue" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: blue;">Heb een plezierig
weekend. Jacqueline</span></font></p><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">