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<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 06 June 2008 - Volume 05<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">-------------------------------------------------------------------------</span><br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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From: <span class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Elsie Zinsser</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:ezinsser@icon.co.za">ezinsser@icon.co.za</a>></span></span><br>Subject: <span class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.06.05 (06) [D]<br>
</span><p><span><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Haai
almal,</span></font></span></p>
<p><span><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Dankie,
Roland.</span></font></span></p>
<p><span><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="DE">Die vorm "wafre" is baie nader aan my pa se Gariepse uitspreek
vorm terwyl die 'wat vir 'n..."<br>bloot die geskrewe vorm in Standaard Afrikaans is.</span></font></span></p>
<p><span><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="DE">Dus in Gariep Afrikaans:<br>Wa virre sous is dit daai?<br>Wa virre nonses hoor ek dat jille ga immigreer?</span></font></span></p>
<p><span><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">ensoaanvoort,
</span></font></span></p>
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888">
<p><span><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Elsie</span></font></span></p></font>----------<br><br><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
From: </span><span class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Luc Hellinckx</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span></span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="HcCDpe"><span class="lDACoc"></span></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Subject: </span><span class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Idiomatica"<br><br></span>
Beste Jacqueline,<br>
<br>
You wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL">Hallo
Diederik and Ron,
re: "Wat voor een hond is dat?". </span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">I am just back
from vacation so I may have missed some of this
string. So if I make a fool of my self; so be it. </span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL">In Dutch you can also say "Wat voor hond is dat?" or even
"Wat is dat voor een hond?" and also "Wat is <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">dat</span></b> voor hond (stress on dat)?"</span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<br>
You set me thinking, when you wrote "Wat is dat voor een hond?".<br>
<br>
Maybe this construction was initially interpreted as "What is that,
as/for a dog?". The answer could then be: "For a dog, it's a pretty
smart animal". So "for" was meant to be a classifier, setting the
subject apart from other creatures. I think English has similar
constructions, like "For a dog, it's a clever animal" or "That's pretty
clever for a dog". The only difference with continental Germanic seems
to be that Dutch and German also use the phrase in a question or a
suggestion like "Wat voor een hond is dat?".<br>
<br>
Could this be the result of continental Germanic having a less strict
word order than English? Or would it rather be typical of older/archaic
language? I have no clue, but I do know that in my native dialect
anyway, word order is much more loosely defined than in standard Dutch.
Probably because dialect is mainly spoken, and speech is more subject
to rhythm than written language.<br>
<br>
Kind greetings,<br><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888">
<br>
Luc Hellinckx</font><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="HcCDpe"><br></span><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888"><p><span><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> </span></span></font></span></p>
</font><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">----------</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="HcCDpe"><span class="lDACoc"></span></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Subject: </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="HcCDpe">Idiomatica<br>
<br>
Jacqueline wrote:<br>
<br>
</span>
<div style="margin-left: 40px;"><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;"></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL">In Dutch you can also say "Wat voor hond is dat?" or even
"Wat is dat voor een hond?" and also "Wat is <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">dat</span></b> voor hond (stress on dat)?"</span></font><br>
</div>
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="HcCDpe"><br>
German and in Low Saxon of Germany use the these constructions too, but the first and last have the indefinite article:<br>
</span>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<ol><li><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL">Dutch: Wat voor hond is dat?<br>
<font color="#000000">Low Saxon: Wat vör eyn (~ 'n) hund is dat? (Wat för een (~ 'n) Hund is dat?)<br>
German: Was für ein Hund ist das?<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
</font></span></font></li><li><font size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="NL">Dutch: Wat is dat voor een hond?<br>
</span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000">Low Saxon: </font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000">Wat</font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> is dat</font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> vör eyn (~ 'n) hund? (Wat</font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> is dat</font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> för een (~ 'n) Hund?)</font></span></font><br>
<font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000">
German: </font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> Was</font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> ist das</font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> für ein Hund?<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
</font></span></font></li><li style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><font size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="NL">Dutch: Wat is <b>dat </b>voor een hond?<br>
</span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000">Low Saxon: </font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000">Wat</font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> is <b>dat</b></font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"><b> </b>vör eyn (~ 'n) hund? (Wat</font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> is <b>dat</b></font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"><b> </b>för een (~ 'n) Hund?)</font></span></font><br>
<font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000">
German: </font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> Was</font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> ist <b>das</b></font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"><b> </b>für ein Hund?</font></span></font></li>
</ol>
</div>
These can also use the cognate of "then" to emphasize wonderment:<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="HcCDpe"><br>
</span>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<ol><li><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL">Dutch: Wat voor hond is dat?<br>
<font color="#000000">Low Saxon: Wat vör eyn (~ 'n) hund is</font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> den</font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> dat? (Wat för een (~ 'n) Hund is</font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> denn</font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> dat?)<br>
German: Was für ein Hund ist</font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> denn</font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> das?<br>
<br>
</font></span></font></li><li><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL">Dutch: Wat voor hond is dat?<br>
<font color="#000000">Low Saxon: Wat vör eyn (~ 'n) hund is <b>dat </b>den? (Wat för een (~ 'n) Hund is <b>dat </b>denn?)<br>
German: Was für ein Hund ist</font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> </font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> <b>das </b></font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000">denn</font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000">?</font></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
</font></span></font></li><li><font size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="NL">Dutch: Wat is dat voor een hond?<br>
</span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000">Low Saxon: </font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000">Wat</font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> is den dat</font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> vör eyn (~ 'n) hund? (Wat</font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> is denn dat</font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> för een (~ 'n) Hund?)</font></span></font><br>
<font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000">
German: </font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> Was</font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> ist denn das</font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> für ein Hund?<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
</font></span></font></li><li style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><font size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="NL">Dutch: Wat is <b>dat </b>voor een hond?<br>
</span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000">Low Saxon: </font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000">Wat</font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> is <b>dat</b></font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"><b> </b>den vör eyn (~ 'n) hund? (Wat</font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> is dat</font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> denn för een (~ 'n) Hund?)</font></span></font><br>
<font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000">
German: </font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> Was</font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"> ist <b>das</b></font></span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="NL"><font color="#000000"><b> </b>denn für ein Hund?</font></span></font></li>
</ol>
</div>
Interesting thought there, Luc!<br><br>And I am rather suspecting something related to expressions such as "She used an old shirt for a rag," or "They have a gander for a watchdog." So if you say, "What for a dog is that?" (if you could say it in English) it would mean something like "What kind of lame excuse for a dog is that?!"<br>
<br>Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron<br><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br></div></div>