<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 08 June 2008 - Volume 10<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <<a href="mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL">ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: Language Varieties</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I've copied a part of a discussion at the Dutch Low Saxon Wikipedia, about</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
a mean orthography for Low Saxon in the Netherlands and in Germany. The</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
name I use there is "Chamavian" - because I was born in Hamaland, in Latin</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Chamavia, named after the ancient Germanic tribe of the Chamavii. Btw that</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
was a Frankish, not a Saxon tribe, however the dialect spoken there</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
nowadays is considered to be typicaly Low Saxon. Dutch, the Standard</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
language of Hamaland, as a part of the Netherlands, is Low Franconian.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Anyway, I concluded here that there is not such a thing as one Low Saxon</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
language, and that Low Saxon from the Netherlands and LS from Germany can</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
actually be seen as two different languages. Just like Swedish and Danish</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
or Norwegian are closely related, but different, independent languages.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Or Castillian (Spanish), Portuguese, Catalan, Galician, Asturian, Leonese,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Valencian are all closely related Iberian but seperate languages.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Actually, Swedish and Norwegian, or Norwegian and Danish are much closer</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
to eachother then NL Low Saxon and DL Low Saxon generally are.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
So are most Iberian languages. So are Bulgarian and Macedonian, or</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Serbian, Croatian and Bosniak, or Czech and Slovak.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
If even Dutch and Afrikaans are considered to be different languages, how</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
can we maintain that Low Saxon is one language?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Therefor I think it is better to speak of the Low Saxon languageS (plural).</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Only in the Netherlands there may already be three linguistically</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
different Low Saxon languages: a Northern one, a South Western and a South</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Eastern one.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I know this will not be a popular point of view to some of us here, but</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
that's how I think about it right now</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Ingmar</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Wee'j, deur al die discussies oaver de mandielige spelling veur</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Nedersaksisch in Nederlaand en Duutslaand is mij ien ding dudelik eworden:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
eigenlik bint 't gewoon verschillende talen. Misschien vrogger niet, mar</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
nou deur de lange en hèvige invlod van de Standaordtalen wel. Nederduuts</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
is gien Nedersaksisch en aansumme. Okee, 't Achterhoeks van mien</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
geboorteplaats Wenters(wiek) lek barre veule op 't Westmönsterlaands van</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
de Duutse naoberplasen Vraene (Vreden) en Bokelt (Bocholt) en dat zal</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
langes aandere greinzen ok wel iens zo weden, mar oaver 't algemien</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
bint 't toch vrömde talen veur mekare. Binnen 't NL Nedersaksisch bint de</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
verschillen al zo groot, lat staon oaver de greinzen. Mu'w daor nog mit</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
perberen een ienheid te worden? Ik wete, 't is vluken in de karke, mar zo</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
zie'k 't wel nou Chamavian 18:44, 8 jun 2008 (CEST)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Daor he-j gelieke an, ik ware van de weke doonde um een artikel te</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
vertalen uut 't Platduuts mar dat was m'n een uutzeukerieje, eers 't</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Platduutse woord ummezetten naor 't Duuts, dan 't Duutse woord opzeuken</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
dat geet allemaole neet zo vlogge, dan mu-j nog ees de grammatica anpassen</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
zodat 't een bietjen te begriepen is... man-man wat een gedo, krek twee</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
amparte talen! Sεrvιεи | Overleg » 19:25, 8 jun 2008 (CEST)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Wat wi-j mit een taal die hum uutstrekt töt an Denemarken en wel-wet-waor</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
in Oost-Duutslaand. De dialecten körtan Nederlaand liekt nog altied meer</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
op oenzende as op die an de varre kaante. Veural dus aj oaver 't skienbare</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
verskil henkiekt det deur de verskillende skriefwiezen kump. Ik hebbe ok</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
muite mit 't Platduuts, mar viene 't wal barre interessaant. Wi'j hebt</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
affiniteit mit menare en kunt menare haalfstaon (mit projecten op</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Wikipedia ezw.). Det lik mi'j 't belangriekste, daorumme zie ik ok geern</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
dew in de maande warkt. Ni'jluuseger 20:12, 8 jun 2008 (CEST)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
En dat is allennig nog mar op papier... noh ja, of op 't scharm dan. Ik</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
deinke dat 't verstaon van mekare in levendig lief hielemaole muilik zol</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
weden. Kiek, wij könt ook allemaole wel aordig wat herkennen in een</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Deense, Noorse of Zweedse eschreven tekst, mar van een Skandinavische film</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
begriepe wij zunder ondertitels krek zo veule as van een Italiaanse of</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Spaonse (of weiniger, in mien geval). En Duuts is ook hiel wat makkeliker</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
te verstaon veur oens as "Platduuts", wees mar eerlik, want Duuts he'w</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
as 't goed is op schoele had of kenne wij van Derrick en Schimanski ;-)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
En 't lek verrekte veul op Nederlaands, natuurlik, die twei talen hebt een</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
grote onderlinge verstaonbaorheid. Ik deinke dat wij deur oenze kennis</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
van 't Duuts juust 't Nederduuts beter verstaot as aandersumme.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Wat wi'k nou eigenlik zeggen: misschien mu'w mar gewoon toegeven dat der</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
meer as ien Nedersaksische taal is, en niet oaver Nedersaksisch dialecten,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
mar oaver Nedersaksische talen praoten. Krek a'j Skandinavische talen</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
hebt, die ook dichtebij mekare staot mar toch verschillend en zölfstaandig</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
bint. Of de Iberische talen: Spaons (Castiliaans), Catalaans, Galicisch,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Portugees, Leonees, Asturiaans.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
As indieling zo'j dan in Nederlaand allennig al drei Nedersaksische talen</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
hebben:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
1) Grunnings en Noord-Dreints (verwant mit Oost-Fries en ook Noordelik</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Nederduuts) 2) Zuud-Dreints, Stellingwarfs, Sallaands, Oost-Veluws</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
(verwant mit Benthems in DL) 3) Twents en Achterhoeks (verwant mit 't</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Westmönsterlaandse Westfaals in DL)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
En die heufdtalen kunt weer in dialecten en subdialecten onderverdield</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
worden:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
bv bij 2] heufddialecten:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
2a Zuud-West-Dreints (Möppelt, Hogeveine etc) 2b Zuud-Oost-Dreints (Emmen,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Koevern etc) 2c Stellingwarfs (Wolvege, Oosterwolde etc) 2d</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Stienwiekerlaands (Kop van Oaveriessel) 2e West-Sallaands (Zwolle, Kaampen</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
etc) 2f Oost-Sallaands (Raolte, Ommen, Nieverdal etc) 2g Oost-Veluws</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
(Apeldoorne, Heerde etc) 2h Benthems (Emmelkaamp DL etc)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Chamavian 22:30, 8 jun 2008 (CEST)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: Language varieties<br><br>Ingmar,<br><br>In this case and in analogous cases, going one way or another primarily requires a type of value judgment depending on your bias. There is no clear-cut formula, nor is this entirely measurable. <br>
<br>You can either look at the large picture while ignoring details, or you can forget about the large picture and focus on details and find a plethora of differences that seem to justify all sorts of divisions. You can also have orthographic differences weigh in and pretend they are inseparable from language and are not resolvable.<br>
<br>I put it to you that, if you go this latter way, you ought to be consistent and chop Low Saxon up even further and call the various parts languages, at the very least North Saxon, East Frisian, Eastphalian, Northeastern Low Saxon, Southeastern Low Saxon, and Westphalian on the German side, and probably more parts > languages on the Netherlands side, for putting for instance Groningen LS (which I consider part of North Saxon) and Twente LS (which I consider part of Westphalian) into one pot would mean ignoring details that elsewhere are not ignored. <br>
<br>Furthermore, division by country is tantamount to playing up respective national influences to bolster one's argument. The opposite would be to focus on the broad common base and consider the rather recent alienating influences relatively insignificant.<br>
<br>In the case of Low Saxon, fragmentation is in actual fact life-threatening, not only linguistic differences but also as far as attitudes and mindsets are concerned. Few people are prepared to look beyond their local dialects, and in this mindset (which I call "myopic") every little difference seems enormous, even from village to village. For instance, in Eastern Friesland and Emsland dialects (in Germany) many words and expressions are those that are used in Netherlands LS and in Dutch. Yet, few people would consider these dialects belonging to a different language. In Groningen they say <i>du</i> (written <i>doe</i>) for 'thou', as in Germany and unlike other LS dialects in the Netherlands. Add to this <i>aai</i> for <i>ei</i> etc., and you can either make the argument that Groningen dialects belong to North Saxon or, considering Dutch influences and nationalistic interests as well as difference of orthography, that they represent yet another language. My point is that you can go two ways, but that you should then follow through methodically and consistently rather than stop at the half-assed solution of dividing Low Saxon along a political boundary, for Dutch vs German influences seem like a weak argument to me, and artificial things like orthographic issues ought not be brought into it.<br>
<br>As far as mutual comprehensibility are concerned (aside from orthography, which is resolvable), there are people that cannot understand the dialect of a couple of villages down the road, and there are people that have no serious problem understanding people hundreds of miles away across a national boundary or two. Most of this has to do with experience and with attitude, and experience and attitude are not set in stone; they can change.<br>
<br>What you are proposing is in my opinion analogous for instance to Galician vs. Portuguese. Linguists that do not consider the border between Spain and Portugal consider the two one language. Differences between the two, including Castilian influences on Galician, are not very significant. Differences in spelling convention enhance the illusion of division visually. And those that <i>want</i> the division will play up all of these relatively insignificant differences.<br>
<br>It is also analogous to the case of Ulster Scots vs. Mainland Scots which some interest groups in Ulster wish to make official. On the other hand, I know of no real movement demanding that Shetlandic be officially separate from Scots, even though arguments for this would seem far more compelling. But, see, Mainland Scots and Shetlandic are both used in Scotland, while Ulster Scots is used outside Scotland and many Ulster Protestants wish to be seen as an indigenous group in its own right, not as a bunch of Scots that ought to be sent home as has been demanded by certain Catholic groups. So it's a political thing, and you can not argue that the case of Low Saxon is devoid of political considerations.<br>
</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">For me personally language survival is the most important thing.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">