<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 08 June 2008 - Volume 06<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Marcus Buck</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org">list@marcusbuck.org</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.09 (04) [E]<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> <mailto:</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">>></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br>
1. I would really love to get your analysis of the phenomenon of<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
lengthening as a result of apocope, a feature that goes by many<br>
younger people who rely much on writing, most of which does not<br>
indicate it. In other words, this feature, along with<br>
distinction between diphthongs and long monophthongs, is in the<br>
process of being lost in great part because of poor spelling.<br>
<br>
</div></blockquote><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Younger people relying too much on writing... Hm, this can only be
aimed against Wikipedia and the other online Low Saxon activities ;-)
cause, I don't think, that there are many young people relying on
writing other than those writing themselves. I don't think there are
many young people who are eager Low Saxon readers. At least not to that
extent, that writing could influence the language. Okay, perhaps people
who try to learn the language without any previous knowledge. But
learning a language from scratch won't work with any language. So, I
say: Don't blame the spelling. The blame has to go to the bad language
transmission. Well, it too is unfair to blame the older generation for
not transmitting the language to their children, cause I think, that
they did, but we have to blame the whole society for creating an
atmosphere in which the younger weren't encouraged to imbibe the
language offered by the older generation.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
This loss of language "subtleties" is a symptom of general language loss and certainly not a symptom of suboptimal spelling.</span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="Ih2E3d"><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Please note that apocope does not apply in cases of grammatical
marking; e.g. /Dat huus is groot /[groːt]/ un hoog/ [hoːx] 'The
house/building is big and tall', /dat grote /[groːte]/, hoge /[ˈhoːɣe]/
huus/ 'the big, tall house/building'.<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Depends. East Frisian does have apocope for grammatical markers. I cite from <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="http://www.bis.uni-oldenburg.de/bisverlag/hv1/9a2-fort.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.bis.uni-oldenburg.de/bisverlag/hv1/9a2-fort.pdf</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">>:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
/Auf Borkum und bei den älteren Emdern sind die alten Adjektivendungen - im Gegensatz</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
zu den übrigen ostfriesischen Mundarten - teilweise erhalten. Man sagt de grote</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Kaap statt de grood' (d' bezeichnet das stimmhafte d im Auslaut vor apokopiertem e)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Kaap; mien olde Mauder statt mien oael Mauder; dat braide Pad statt dat braaid Pad;</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
de baide grote Klaasooms statt de baaid groot Klaasooms; en junge Fent; wie binnen de</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Groten, de Dummen, de Klauken, usw.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888">
<br>
/Marcus Buck/</font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: Phonology</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Marcus, you responded:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Younger people relying too much on writing... Hm, this can only be
aimed against Wikipedia and the other online Low Saxon activities ;-)</span><br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Why?! "Only"?! I grant you that the Wikipedia activities are pretty darn important and impressive, and I really mean it and, as you know, support them. But they aren't the center of my universe or the be-all of "Platt", nor are the participants the only ones (young or old) that ignore "subtleties" that I consider as subtle as distinguishing English "bear" and "beer", "bed" and "bet", or "loan" and "lawn," for example. </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I hear many people speak, both competent and learning speakers, and I read lots of people's written works. This goes far beyond the Wikipedia. </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">To competent speakers differences such as between [ˈbeːdn̥] ~ [ˈbɛːdn̥] 'to pray', 'to request' and [ˈbɛˑɪdn̥] ~ [ˈbaˑɪdn̥] 'to offer' are as important as is the difference between their German cognates </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">beten</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> and </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">bieten</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">. When such speakers write to or for each other and omit the written distinction they still make the difference when speaking. Omitting the differences in reference material is an entirely different story. In my eyes it's the same as ignoring diacritic marks when writing Romance, Celtic or Slavic languages -- not excusable. And yes, you guys ignoring such "subtleties" is a gripe of mine, but it is only a part of a larger gripe, and it doesn't mean that I poo-poo the overall effort you put forth with the Wikipedia project.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Again, most competent native and near-native speakers still do make these differences and better reference books do indicate them, at least the difference between monophthongs and diphthongs. (Yes, even the much poo-pooed New Sass!) So not only is there no excuse for ignoring them when you are non-native speakers who should consider themselves learners, but as writers and compilers of reference material ignoring these still existing "subtleties" you miss an important opportunity and obligation. (If you ignore the differences in your private writing is a different matter.) Remember that many learners will take you at your word because you are setting yourselves up as educators. And all you have to do is look up questionable words and/or have them checked by people that do know the differences. Dismissing them as old-fashioned, inconsequential subtleties, as though they were dead and gone, and letting only non-native speakers determine what is to be treated as a symptom of language loss is a cop-out for the sake of convenience, a way of covering one's behind for can't-be-bothered laziness. More importantly, it amounts to complicity in linguistic deterioration. Reference material should present a living language optimally, even if this requires additional work. Look for instance at the Russian Wikipedia in which head words and phrases as well as foreign names come with stress indication as well as with distinction between </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">е</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> and</span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> ё</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> even though this is never done in ordinary Russian texts, only in textbooks for non-native speakers. If they can go that extra half mile, what excuse is there in the case of a language in which a sizable number of speakers and writers still do make the difference?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Yes, it is a gripe of mine, and tongue lashings will ensue when provoked. (This is mostly because I think it is such a shame.) But it is by no means directed only at the WikiPlatt team, for out there are plenty of textbooks and dictionaries that are guilty of the same neglect. And yet again, apart from this one (not insignificant) point I applaud you for your initiative, effort and perseverance. And, Marcus, by now you ought to know that I am also fully appreciative of the various things you do, not only as a member of that team, and your willingness not to let disagreements kill relationships.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Thanks for the note about the Emsland varieties! (You'd better not call them "East Frisian"! I understand the old rivalry between the two areas is not dead and gone.)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Kumpelmenten,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">