<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">========================================================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 11 June 2008 - Volume 02<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <<a href="mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL">ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.10 (03) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
The general apocope of schwa in most Low Saxon languages of Germany looks</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
special compared to the national Standard German, but in Standard Dutch</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
most schwas were long dropped, too.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
The funny thing is that most Low Saxon languages in the Netherlands do not</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
drop schwa, so in that they look more like their neighbour's Standard</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
German, whereas LS in Germany looks more like the Standard language of</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
their Dutch comglots.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
The superlength and voiced final stops you mention for Northern Low Saxon</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
in Germany do not occur in Dutch.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Dutch, same examples:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
haas [ha:s]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
haar [ha:r]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
deel [de:ł]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
lui [lœY]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
bruid [brœYt]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
maag [ma:x]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
oog [oʊx]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
laag [la:x]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
droog [droʊx]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
loog [loʊx]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Dutch Low Saxon:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
(SAMPA prono)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
haze ["ha:z@]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
haor [hO:9]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
deel [de:l]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
leu [l2:]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
broed [brut]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
mage ["ma:G@]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
oge ["o:G@]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
leeg [le:x]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
dreuge["dr2:G@]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
loog [lo:x]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
In Achterhoek, Veluwe, Salland, Stellingwarves, South Drenthe Low Saxon, -</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
e is not deleted. In Northern Drenthe, Groningen and (partly) Twente, it is</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Ingmar</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
From: Travis Bemann <<a href="mailto:tabemann@gmail.com">tabemann@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.09 (04) [E]<br><br>
> From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
> Subject: Phonology<br>
><br>
> Thanks again, Travis, for these interesting and important bits of<br>
> information. The Kahuna (<a href="http://lowlands-l.net/treasures/kahuna.htm" target="_blank">http://lowlands-l.net/treasures/kahuna.htm</a>) has<br>
> begun to pay attention.<br>
><br>
> Low Saxon apocope is morpheme-final. There are two interesting things<br>
about<br>
> it:<br>
><br>
> While it did (or does?) apply in most North Saxon dialects (which are the<br>
> ones that tend to dominate the presence of the language), it did not<br>
apply<br>
> in a good number of others, especially in Westphalian and Eastphalian<br>
ones<br>
> and North Saxon and Eastern dialects that border them. So you can still<br>
> analyze living varieties that have no apocope.<br>
><br>
> I would really love to get your analysis of the phenomenon of lengthening<br>
as<br>
> a result of apocope, a feature that goes by many younger people who rely<br>
> much on writing, most of which does not indicate it. In other words, this<br>
> feature, along with distinction between diphthongs and long monophthongs,<br>
is<br>
> in the process of being lost in great part because of poor spelling.<br>
Apocope<br>
> causes lengthening of the preceding syllable, which in cases of long<br>
> monophthongs leads to extra- or super-long monophthongs (referred to as<br>
> Schleifton "drawl tone" in German). What's particularly interesting here<br>
is<br>
> that final devoicing (which otherwise applies consistently) is starved in<br>
> the case of super-length. In other words, it looks as though apocope<br>
applies<br>
> after devoicing. In dialects with intervocalic d-deletion, /d/ may then<br>
be<br>
> deleted (which seems to have happened in the case of Dutch luyde > lui<br>
> 'people'), and in a few dialects this happens to /g/ as well. Examples:<br>
><br>
> Monophthongs:<br>
> hase [ˈhɒːze] ~> haas'
[hɒːˑz] (not *[hɒːs])
'hare'<br>
> (haar [hɒːɐ] 'hair' >) hare
[hɒːre] -> haar'
[hɒːˑɐ] 'hairs'<br>
> stede [ˈsteː(d)e] ~> steed' [steːˑ(d)] (not *[steːt]) 'stead', 'place',<br>
> 'spot'<br>
> dele [ˈdeːle] ~> deel' [deːˑl] (not *[deːl]) 'floor', 'hallway', 'stage'<br>
> luyde [lyː(d)e] ~> luyd' [ˈlyːˑ(d)] (not *[lyːt]) 'people'<br>
> (bruud 'bride' [bruːt] >) bruyde [ˈbryː(d)e] ~> bruyd' [bryːˑ(d)] (not<br>
> *[bryːt]) 'brides'<br>
> (dag [dax] 'day' >) dage
[ˈdɒːɣe] ~> daag'
[dɒːˑɣ] (not
*[dɒːx]) 'days'<br>
> mage [ˈmɒːɣe] ~> maag'
[mɒːˑɣ] (not
*[mɒːx]) 'stomach'<br>
> (weg [vɛç] 'way' >) wege
[ˈveːɣe] ~ weeg'
[veːˑɣ] (not *[veːç]) 'ways'<br>
> (schaap [ʃɒːp] 'sheep' >) schape
[ˈʃɒːpe] ~> schaap'
[ʃɒːˑp] (not
*[ʃɒːp])<br>
> 'sheep' (pl.)<br>
> oge [ʔoːɣe] ~> oog'
[ʔoːˑɣ] (not
[ʔoːx] or [ʔɔʊx]) 'eye'<br>
> (schip [ʃɪp] 'ship' >) schippe
[ˈʃɪpe] ~> scheep'
[ʃeːˑp] (not *[ʃeːp])<br>
> 'ships' ([ɪː] > [eː])<br>
> But:<br>
> stimme [ˈstɪˑme] ~> stimm [stɪˑm] 'voice'<br>
> lippe [ˈlɪpe] ~> lipp [lɪp] 'lip'<br>
> valle [ˈfaˑle] ~> vall [ˈfaˑł] 'trap'<br>
> (pot [pʰɔt] 'pot' >) pötte [ˈpʰœte] ~> pöt [pʰœt] 'pots'<br>
><br>
> Diphthongs:<br>
> (leyge [ˈlɛˑɪ&</div>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" id="1ewm" class="ArwC7c ckChnd">#669;e]
~ [ˈlaˑɪʝe] >) leyg'
[lɛːɪʝ] ~
[laːɪʝ] ('low' >) 'bad'<br>
> (usually written leeg and mispronounced as [lɛɪç])<br>
> (droyge [ˈdrœˑɪʝe] ~ [ˈdrɔˑɪʝe] >) droyg' [drœːɪʝ] ~ [drɔːɪʝ] 'dry'<br>
> (usually written dröög and mispronounced as [drœɪç] ~ [drɔɪç])<br>
> louge [ˈlɔˑʊɣe] ~ [ˈlaˑʊɣe] > loug' [ˈlɔːʊɣ] ~ [ˈlaːʊɣ] 'lye', 'leach',<br>
> 'solution'<br>
> (usually written Loog and mispronounced as [loːx] ~ [lɔʊx])<br>
><br>
> Please note that apocope does not apply in cases of grammatical marking;<br>
> e.g. Dat huus is groot [groːt] un hoog [hoːx] 'The house/building is big<br>
and<br>
> tall', dat grote [groːte], hoge [ˈhoːɣe] huus 'the big, tall<br>
> house/building'.<br>
<br>
As for this, I cannot really speak for certain, particularly because I<br>
do not know all the circumstances of Northern Low Saxon apocope, but I<br>
would probably approach it from the following point of view:<br>
<br>
If said apocope is still productive, then it is easy to analyze. In<br>
that case I suspect it would reflect an underlyingly retained /e/ in<br>
word-final positions, as the elision thereof would result in<br>
compensatory lengthening while shielding in the final consonant and<br>
reinforcing its voicing (through it phonemically falling<br>
intervocalically, where voicing influences tend to be very strong<br>
crosslinguistically).<br>
<br>
If said apocope is no longer productive, then things are a bit<br>
trickier. In that event one would likely have to have phonemic<br>
overlong vowels in the final syllables of morphemes or have some kind<br>
of special null vowel phoneme following such syllables, and in the<br>
former case either some ad hoc rule where overlong vowels prevent<br>
devoicing of consonants in their codas or treat practically all words<br>
except for words so affected as having final devoicing underlyingly<br>
being allomorphy. As for such allomorphy, the problem would then be<br>
that it would be the rule and not the exception, contrary to how<br>
allomorphy generally works, even though one could treat it in terms of<br>
such being the default behavior of words in general.<br>
<br>
Of course, the largest clue to such is how loans from languages<br>
allowing words with word-final schwas and or voiced consonants are<br>
handled. If loans originally ending in schwas undergo apocope, then<br>
such is still productive and thus the first case applies. If loans<br>
originally ending in voiced consonants do not undergo final devoicing,<br>
then the case of having final devoicing implemented through allomorphy<br>
applies. If neither apply, though, it would require further analysis<br>
to determine whether such reflects final null vowel phoneme of some<br>
sort, as ad hoc as that really seems or having a phonemic overlong<br>
vowel whose presence synchronically suppresses final devoicing of its<br>
syllable's coda.<br>
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Phonology<br>
<br>
Thanks a lot for that, Travis (also for the piece about Wisconsin<br>
identity).<br>
<br>
Your take on Low Saxon apocope happens to be the same as mine.<br>
<br>
Lately I am inclined to see Low Saxon apocope as still productive,<br>
resulting<br>
in overlength as a matter of compensatory lengthening, at least in some<br>
dialects. However, I also think that apocope is no longer productive in a<br>
number of dialects and idiolects and that it is these that have dropped<br>
compensatory lengthening.<br>
<br>
The reason why I think apocope is still productive at least in some<br>
dialects<br>
is precisely the one you mentioned: treatment of loanwords.<br>
<br>
For example, these days people say and write *leertast* (*L**ę**ęrtast*)<br>
[ˈleːɝtast] 'space bar' (< German *Leertaste*), *buyn'* (*Bühn*) [byː(ˑ)n]<br>
(< German *Bühne*) for '(theater) stage' (instead of native *speeldeel* (*<br>
Spęęldęęl*)), and *juud'* (*Juud'*) [ɟuː(ˑ)(d)] for 'Jew' (< German *Jude*)<br>
replacing native *joyd'* (*Jööd'*)). However, there are others that say and<br>
write *leertaste* (*L**ę**ęrtaste*), *buyne* (*Bühne*) and *jude* (*Jude*)<br>
respectively.<br>
<br>
However, most speakers that apply compensatory lengthening do not know that<br>
they are doing so, and they would not be able to explain it even if they<br>
did. It thus goes by most adult learners, and it does not help that it is<br>
not (consistently) indicated orthographically and so far has not been<br>
described and taught in textbooks for ordinary folk. So, while by no means<br>
dead and gone, it is going down the tubes because of inattention.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron</div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: Phonology</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Ingmar,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">My examples are limited to those North Saxon varieties that do have apocope. Even within this group there are those that do not have it, especially those at the geographic periphery. Most varieties of the Eastphalian and Westphalian groups do not have apocope, the latter and the southwestern North Saxon varieties bordering on those of most Low Saxon varieties of the Netherlands, having been on a continuum with them.<br>
<br>This is quite consistent with what you wrote:<br><br></span><div style="margin-left: 40px;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
In Achterhoek, Veluwe, Salland, Stellingwarves, South Drenthe Low Saxon, -</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
e is not deleted. In Northern Drenthe, Groningen and (partly) Twente, it is</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"></div>
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">P.S.: The gobblidigook characters are due to you using the online interface.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">