<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 13 June 2008 - Volume 03<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <<a href="mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL">ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.12 (08) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
This Middle English [æ:] (SAMPA [{:] ) looks like an early phase in the</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
process from [a:] to [e:]. In the Netherlands, we see the same in several</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
dialects:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Standard Dutch:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
maken [a:] to make</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Different Zeeland dialects:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
from maeken [{:] through maeken [E:], to meken [e:]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
But Zeeland Flemish has maoken [O:] like the rest of West Flemish</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Stellingwerven Low Saxon (S.E. Friesland, West Drenthe, N.W. Overyssel):</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
maeken [E:]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Probably Dutch had two different sounds for what is long a [a:] today in</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
words like maken, water vs slapen, jaar, as many dialects still have.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
In the Low Saxon speaking Eastern and Northern Netherlands:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
dark ao [O:] in slapen, jaar => slaopen [slO:p-m], jaor [jO:@]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
aa [A:] in maken, water => maken [mA:k-N], water [PA:t-r]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
the latter aa is pronounced 'lighter', more palatal than Dutch aa [a:].</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
In North Holland dialects, also called West Fries, but being Dutch:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
ee [e:], [eI] or ei [EI] in jeer, sleipe</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
aa [a:] or [Q:] in maken, water</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
the latter aa is often pronounced somewhat 'darker' than Dutch aa.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Historically, both A sounds were different:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
aa in slapen, gaan, staan, daar etc was already a long vowel, whereas</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
a in water, maken is a short that was lengthned in open syllables.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
So that's for the dialects.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
An interesting feature in modern times is the prono of Dutch long A in</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
different regions.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
In Amsterdam, aa tends to be pronounced dark [Q:], similar to Afrikaans.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
This happens in more towns in the area, and in all communities there:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Dutch, Black, Muslim, Asian etc.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
In Groningen, speakers tend to pronounce every Dutch long aa palatally as</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
ae [{:]. This is interesting because in Groningen Low Saxon, both A sounds</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
are pronounced very dark as oa [o:]. In their dialects it is goan, woater</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
etc., but when speaking Standard Dutch it's gaen, waeter etc.!</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
At the opposite side of the country, e.g. in the Brabant city of Tilburg,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
this ae for Dutch aa is also spreading rapidly. In the Brabant dialects,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Dutch aa is usually ao [O:].</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Palatal ae has always seen as an Ingvaeonic or North Sea Germanic feature.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Ingmar</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
From: Travis Bemann <</span><a style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" href="mailto:tabemann@gmail.com">tabemann@gmail.com</a><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.12 (02) [E</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
> From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
> Subject: Phonology</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
> So I believe the name Shakespeare was pronounced [ˈʃæːkspeːɹ] at the time</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
> (cf. modern [ˈʃɛɪkspɪɹ], [ˈʃɛɪkspiɝ], [ˈʃeɪkspɪə], [ˈʃæɪkspɪə], etc.).</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
> Many Canadian speakers have monophthong [eː] as an equivalent of the said</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
> sound (thus saying [ˈʃeːkspɪɹ], I guess). On the US side, too, many</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
speakers</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
> [eː] or [ɛː] in names like "Australia</span>".<br></div>
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Paul Finlow-Bates</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.12 (08) [E]<br><br></span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>Subject: Phonology<br><br></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">So I believe the name Shakespeare was pronounced [ˈʃæːkspeːɹ] at the time<br>(cf. modern [ˈʃɛɪkspɪɹ], [ˈʃɛɪkspiɝ], [ˈʃeɪkspɪə], [ˈʃæɪkspɪə], etc.).</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I suspect
it still had its terminal "r", rather like Americans say it. They still
pronounce it through much of Southwest England, and they were doing so
in Kent and Sussex into the 20th C.</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">In the 1998 film
"Shakespeare in Love" the American cast members (e.g. Gwyneth Paltrow,
Ben Afleck) spoke with very convincing modern English accents; it would
have been more authentic if the British and others had used American
accents!</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: Phonology</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Thanks, guys!</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Ingmar, have you ever researched if there are any early differentiations between what in modern varieties is the separation of [a:] and [ɒ:]? It might be worth our while to look at ancient forms in comparison with a short list of examples.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Paul, it's great to "see" you again. </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">I suspect
it still had its terminal "r", rather like Americans say it. </span><br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Yes, everyone seems to agree that rhoticism was the norm in the happening places of Southern England in Shakespeare's time. Actually, when you take all of the safe reconstructed features together (including the characteristic [əɪ]* for what is now [aɪ] as in "I" and "eye") you end up with something less sounding like American English, a bit more like Irish English, and very much like old-time Southwest English dialects on which "pirate talk" is based. ("Aye, me hearrties!") I don't know how that would have gone over had it been used in the movie. (Imagine Gwyneth Paltrow talking "like a pirate"!) I believe these are the old-time English dialects of Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, western Wiltshire and southern Gloucestershire (Bristol). Right? These could simply be more conservative.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">(* This [əɪ] sound -- mid-shift between old [i:] and modern [aɪ] -- also survived in many Scots and Scottish English varieties.)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I am in the middle of tweaking some phonetic detail of my Early Modern English Wren translation. It should be up soon. Is anyone game to make a recording? If not, I might end up taking a stab at it myself, or even in addition. The more the merrier.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">They still
pronounce it through much of Southwest England, and they were doing so
in Kent and Sussex into the 20th C.</span><br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">This is interesting with respect to Old Saxon, since we are talking about one of England's "hard-core" Saxon areas. Non-rhoticism as in Southeastern England, in Australia, in New Zealand and so forth is pretty much identical with that of Northern Low Saxon.* However, perhaps they developed independently from each other then. I had always wondered if the "seeds" of it had crossed over to England with early Saxon colonization.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">(* Non-rhoticism and voiceless stop aspiration are two important phonological features Southern English dialects share with the Northern Low Saxon heartland dialects, as opposed to rhoticism and non-aspiration in Low Franconian, or rather Franconian in general.)<br>
<br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">